Dogen called me a moron!

[Kaishin]

I had PM'd Jundo about this, and he asked me to post it here so he could answer for everyone. Said I wasn't as dumb as Dogen made me feel. But still pretty dumb (j/k he didn't say that).

So here we go!

__________________________________________________ __


Hi Jundo,

Been struggling with this passage below from Shobogenzo for the past couple of weeks. I'm confused, because when I read Huineng's words, that's exactly my interpretation: that buddha nature is beyond our relative world of descriptions and labels like "north person" and "south person." So buddha nature has no separation--all sentient beings are buddha nature, regardless of who or where they are.

But Dogen says that's a stupid dimwit's view!

So, if that's not what Huineng means, what does he mean? I feel like I'm missing something fundamental here or misreading what Dogen is saying...

Tanahashi's translation is first. The second one is Nishijima's much harsher translation, in which Dogen is really calling me an idiot!

Thanks!
Kaishin

Dive over and over again into the statement of Huineng, There are people from the south and people from the north, but in buddha nature there is no south or north. Work on it and quietly let go of it. Some foolish people assume that Huineng’s statement means that people from the south differ from those from the north because of their qualities, but that buddha nature goes beyond south or north, as it is empty and fluid. This is ignorant beyond measure. Disregard such a crooked view and study straightforwardly.

Dogen, Zen Master (2013-02-05). Treasury of the True Dharma Eye: Zen Master Dogen's <i>Shobo Genzo</i> (Kindle Locations 6195-6198). Shambhala. Kindle Edition.

We should quietly take up and let go of the sixth patriarch's words "People have south and north, but the Buddha-nature is without south and north." Stupid people think, "The human world has south and north because it is hindered by physical substance, whereas the Buddha-nature, being void and dissolute, is beyond discussion of south and north."
Those who guess that the sixth patriarch said this may be powerless dimwits. Casting aside this wrong understanding, we should directly proceed with diligent practice.

[Risho]

Ah wow; I think Huineng is making a point that Buddha nature pervades everywhere. Maybe what Dogen is pointing out is subtler that Buddha Nature is not the opposite of form; it's not some void separate from the world of form. Maybe his answer is coming from the perspective that Emptiness is Form? That Buddha Nature is everything, not void of life... that although beyond both South and North is also South and North?

That's a damned good question Kaishin.

Gassho,

Risho
-sattoday

[Jishin]

I think he is saying go beyond form = emptiness (no north and south in Buddha nature) to form = form. North is perfectly north and south perfectly south just as it is. Now, with true north and true south one can discuss the correct true Path, distinctions included, and proceed with diligent practice to decrease suffering.

Dunno. Just some thoughts.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Risho]

im not sure what that means lol

Im not exactly sure what the hell I was trying to say either

[Jishin]

That's the trouble with words. :-)

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Kaishin]

Yeah, I mean I get the whole "mountains are mountains again" thing, but I'm not sure it makes sense in this context. I dunno... That's why I asked Jundo lol.... I'm sure he'll be along soon to straighten us out 😆

[Getchi]

Would Huineng say North or South? I thought Buddha nature could not be separate to this world?

Very interested to hear the answer, mountains being mountains always made me smile. I still don't understand it but seeing mountains walking is the same.

[Anshu Bryson]

Might 'North' and 'South' be an allusion to the 'Northern/gradual' and 'Southern/sudden enlightenment' schools of Chan? Particularly when it concerns the Sixth Patriarch/Ancestor, Huineng/Daikan Eno (referring to the rivalry between Huineng and Yuquan Shenxiu/Jinshu Joza, the 'Northern Ancestor'). So, in this case, might it mean that there is no distinction between gradual and sudden enlightenment (i.e. it's all Zen, and one already has Buddha Nature, so don't sweat the small stuff...)?

Gassho,
Anshu

-sat today-

[Jishin]

How about this one. Dogen was big on Shikantaza and when he used words he often was trying to teach Shikantaza. In this framework then:

Dive over and over again into the statement of Huineng...

- go sit and think non-thinking, over and over.

Disregard such a crooked view and study straightforwardly.

- do not get attached to views, just go sit. It's straightforward and it is enlightenment itself.

We should quietly take up and let go of the sixth patriarch's words...

- just sit quietly and let go...

Casting aside this wrong understanding, we should directly proceed with diligent practice.

- there is no need for verbal understanding, just go sit and realization takes place by itself in the bones.

He is all about practice-enlightment. This being so, it's 600 AM and time-no-time to go sit!

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Kyonin]

Hi Kaishin,

When I read those very paragraphs of Shobogenzo I too got the feeling I was missing something. But unless I get corrected by our teacher, I think it means that our mind loves to separate things.

We create boundaries, borders and walls to have the illusion that we are in control of mundane stuff. We primitive chimps love to do that because it's easier to relate to tangible stuff even it its a self imposed limit.

But Buddha Nature pervades the whole universe. It has no limits or walls because it is All That Is. So we try to understand this, we intellectualize but then we let go of it all. I guess this means something like "shut up and go sit". But I could be wrong.

Gassho,

Kyonin
#SatToday

[Jundo]

I will not be providing any "answer", just a way to look at this. Dogen was something of a "stream of consciousness" poet playing with Traditional Buddhist Teachings ... kind of the Buddhist T.S.Elliot or James Joyce or John Coltrane bending standard melodies ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?9332-SIT-A-LONG-with-JUNDO-Dogen-A-Love-Supreme

Sometimes one has to just feel what he was getting at. I will try to say what I feel he was trying to get at.

Wow, some good insights from the folks here, and I feel comments like these have about spotted the issue:

...Maybe what Dogen is pointing out is subtler that Buddha Nature is not the opposite of form; it's not some void separate from the world of form. Maybe his answer is coming from the perspective that Emptiness is Form? That Buddha Nature is everything, not void of life... that although beyond both South and North is also South and North?

I think he is saying go beyond form = emptiness (no north and south in Buddha nature) to form = form. North is perfectly north and south perfectly south just as it is.

I looked at the surrounding passages, and I believe Dogen's point is that falling back on the "no north or south" absolute is not truly enlightenment until we bring it alive with every step we take, and direction we choose to head, in this world of north and south. Satori is not just some rediscovery of a state beyond distinctions, but also about making it real in this world of distinctions.

As well, Dogen expresses such a radical "have the Buddha nature" or "is the Buddha nature" that it is actually beyond all philosophical debate based on human concepts of "have vs. not have" or "is vs. is not".

You get the feeling? "Buddha nature" is (1) radically beyond even the name "Buddha nature" and "is/not is" and any description, yet nonetheless (2) needs to be brought alive in our lives or otherwise is kinda worthless. So. (2) how we choose to live and our diligent practice "makes Buddha nature" (in the relative world of north or self), nonetheless (1) Buddha nature is not something that needs to or can be made (from the absolute perspective transcending north and south). That is how to really understand "what is Buddha nature"

So, looking at the preceding sentences to the passage asked about by Kaishin (Nishijima-Cross Translation and [in parenthesis Soto Zen Text Project]) ... I add my (1) and (2) ...

The Sixth Patriarch says, “(2) People have south and north, but (1) the buddha-nature is without south and north.” ... The words of the Sixth Patriarch’s expression of the truth have meaning in them: they include a point of view that “(2) People become buddha, but (1) the buddha-nature cannot become buddha” [it captures one corner of the fact that (2) “people” may “make a buddha,” but (1) the buddha nature does not “make a buddha.”] ... How could the (2) “having” of (1) “totally having” not receive the Dharma from the (2) “being without” in which (1) there is no “being without”? ...

Throughout the "Buddha Nature" essay of Shobogenzo, Dogens points to the statement "without Buddha nature" as actually constituting a radical affirmation of Buddha nature, because Buddha nature is so "Super With" that it is beyond and right through debates about "with vs. without".

At this time, if the Sixth Patriarch were a person of the fact [note: something like "the real deal"], he would strive to consider these words “being without the buddha-nature.” Setting aside for a while the “being without” of “having or being without,” he should ask, “Just what is the buddha-nature?” He should inquire, “What concrete thing is the buddhanature?” People today also, when they have heard of the buddha-nature, do not ask further, “What is the buddha-nature?” They seem only to discuss the meaning of the buddha-nature’s existence, nonexistence, and so on. [People today as well, once they have heard “buddha nature,” without going on to ask what the buddha nature is, seem to talk about the meaning of the being and non-being of the buddha nature. ] ...

But in any event, it is not a naked idea or realm merely transcendent of dualisms such as "north vs. south", but needs to be brought to life through diligent practice in this world of north and south...

We should quietly take up and let go of the Sixth Patriarch’s words “People have south and north, but the buddha-nature is without south and north.” ... ” Stupid people think, “The human world has south and north because it is hindered by physical substance, whereas the buddha-nature, being void and dissolute, is beyond discussion of south and north.” Those who guess that the Sixth Patriarch said this may be powerless dimwits. Casting aside this wrong understanding, we should directly proceed with diligent practice.

That is how I hear the music in my bones.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Risho]

ahhhhhhhh! thank you I thought that was it, but I didn't know it because I frankly need more practice to really really know it.

This is similar to "The person of no rank" discussion; where Dogen does Dogen and talks about both sides of the no-sided coin -- Jundo quoted this in that thread:

The strongest way that [Linji] phrased it was merely as ‘a real person
who is beyond rank’; he still had not phrased it as ‘a real person who
has a rank’. He had not yet displayed any other ways of exploring this
through his training or any other ways of putting it. Thus, we must say
that he had not yet reached the field of the Ultimate.

It's common for me to slip to one side or the other, but they are both here. It's not like hey I've got the absolute point of view - I win. That's nihilistic. Both sides have to be together; for this to work, we have to bring this into our lives. The lotus comes from the mud; we are the mud and the lotus; we are the storm and the stillness, no need to push or grasp. But we can bring what we experience in zazen: no-rank, no-mind, no north/no south, into our everyday lives of distinction. Those are real and can't be ignored.

It's almost as if Dogen is yelling, "Get your head out of the clouds people!" or from Genjokoan where the pupil tries to grasp air to express emptiness, but the master yanks on his nose. What's emptiness? coughing, sneezing, farting. But it's also loving, laughing, etc. It's the whole damned kaboom!

Interestingly, I ran into this same issue in "After Buddhism" last night; funny how I run into these things as we discuss them; I'm wondering if it's more the sangha opening my eyes to those things that I didn't notice before. Anyway, Stephen Batchelor talks about this "Unconditioned", "Absolute", "Buddha-Nature" isn't something we get. It's experiential in the here and now. This isn't a practice for leaving the world for an oft-sought after bliss state.

This (the four noble truths/tasks, emptiness, compassion) is meant to be lived; truth isn't meant to be acquired as much as it's a compass one points their life toward constantly atoning (readjusting) the course as we make mistakes and stumble in enlightenment together. That's why practice is enlightenment. Practice isn't a a path toward enlightenment. Just restating what I know in this context, I don't mean to sound preachy

Thank you all for this thread. Funny how you think you understand, but hearing the same point expressed differently exploits how far from it I am, how much more practice is required to integrate the teachings into my life. Very humbling.

Gassho,

Risho
-sattoday

[Kaishin]

Thanks, Jundo et al, that clarifies the matter. As much as it can be clarified to the intellect

Practice isn't a a path toward enlightenment.

Just don't tell that to anyone outside our tradition!

[Heisoku]

Hi all, if you substitute black and white for North and south it makes more sense. IMHO.
Gassho Heisoku
Sat today

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