No Rank

[Rich]

In the outer world of function, roles and ranks are necessary. In the inner world of being there is no rank. My respect and interaction with the pope is the same quality as with the beggar.
Pope Francis is pretty cool with this.

SAT today

[Jundo]

In the outer world of function, roles and ranks are necessary. In the inner world of being there is no rank. My respect and interaction with the pope is the same quality as with the beggar.
Pope Francis is pretty cool with this.

SAT today

There is no difference between Pope and Begger, all just Buddha, all Jesus, all without rank.

And yet the Pope is the Pope and the Begger the Begger. The College of Cardinals is not led by a Begger, nor do millions flock to hear him. One sleeps in a palace, one in an alley. Perhaps it would be a better world if we elected a Begger to head our institutions, letting our Popes fend for themselves in the streets.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Rich]

Thanks Jundo.
How is the sometimes beggar Taigu?

SAT today

[Gukan]

Yes, I really had the inner world of being in mind, rather than the outer getting-things-done world where roles/ranks/whatevers are rather important

I went to look around a school with my daughter last week where the ethos of equality and respect was palpably expressed in the way staff and children interacted with each other. Everyone's voice deserved to be heard - but not all the time! All were of equal worth - but the head teacher was still the boss!

Well, I guess I didn't express it very well. I knew what I meant

Libby
sattoday

[Sekishi]

To (badly) paraphrase Alan Watts: if I hand you a stick or twig and say "break off the left side", you'll hand me back two sticks, each with a left side. Presto chango!

In the minds of sentient beings, left is defined by right, and right is defined by left. The same is true of up and down, light and dark, and lowly and worthy. All completely empty.

And yet, life is lived within forms created by a particular rank. Lets say my rank is "white middle class male in Virginia in the early 21st century". I cannot deny the effects of that rank (access to food and medicine and material comforts, enough time and money to pursue hobbies and projects, etc.).

I believe that to truly be of "no rank" is to both see the empty nature of lowly and worthy, and to see (and work on) how lowly and worthy manifest in the world.

But thats just my opinion man.

Gassho,
Sekishi
#sattoday

[Jundo]

And yet, life is lived within forms created by a particular rank. Lets say my rank is "white middle class male in Virginia in the early 21st century". I cannot deny the effects of that rank (access to food and medicine and material comforts, enough time and money to pursue hobbies and projects, etc.).

I believe that to truly be of "no rank" is to both see the empty nature of lowly and worthy, and to see (and work on) how lowly and worthy manifest in the world.

But still I hope we can do much to make the divisions less wide, and make sure "low rank" and "high rank" are not so economically and socially far apart in this world. The 1% have too much power. People in this world are too poor while others live too well.

Jefferson said "aｌｌ men are created equal", but that left out the women and slaves! He also meant that every man is theoretically born equal, but he still knew that some ride in carriages and some live in the streets. I hope we build a world where everybody has at least a human level of food, shelter, education, health care, representation in government, opportunity.

By the way, even though somebody has to be the manager in the monastery or the office or the restaurant kitchen, still, no need for tyrants. The relative democratization that has happened to Buddhism as it moved from Asia to the West is a good thing. Somebody still needs to be the bus driver, telling the passengers to sit and be quiet and no smoking, turning the wheel and explaining the route to new riders ... keeping things moving in the right direction ... but we are all bozos on the bus.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Sekishi]

But still I hope we can do much to make the divisions less wide, and make sure "low rank" and "high rank" are not so economically and socially far apart in this world. The 1% have too much power. People in this world are too poor while others live too well.

Agreed 100%. As I said "to see (and work on) how lowly and worthy manifest". I guess in contemporary terminology that can mean both acknowledging "privilege" (we could Buddify that by saying "karma that flows from a higher rank"), and using it to enact change in the world as best we can.

Gassho from another bozo on the bus,
Sekishi
#SatToday

[Jika]

when nobody challenged what the Abbot said!

You are now free to do whatever seems necessary or skillful.

because there is thirty years of handling paint and solving problems

Thank you for the interesting thread.

I am reminded of my boss.
I work in a very traditional hierarchy, and from cloths to office size you'll know immediately who is the "chef in the kitchen".
All beginners are afraid to question anything the boss says.
I have made the experience that since I accept he is the most experienced, I can also challenge him if I think it to be necessary and do so in a skillful way (to my best ability, which often does not mean much, but he knows me by now).
In fact, he said he appreciates it a lot, because sometimes it lets him review things and come to a new conclusion.

I think this is about mutual respect and trust:
To fully accept the hierarchy, but not be too intimidated by it.
Trust each other to still think freely, for the sake of best results.

I have not heard many Zen storys or sutras yet, but isn't that a way of teacher-student relationship too?
Sometimes the Buddha gets asked strange things, but through that he comes to a wonderful teaching.
If no "lowly" had dared talk to the ancestors, addressed the abbot, we would not have so many stories.

Deep bows
Jika
#sattoday

[Jundo]

Thank you for the interesting thread.

I am reminded of my boss.
I work in a very traditional hierarchy, and from cloths to office size you'll know immediately who is the "chef in the kitchen".
All beginners are afraid to question anything the boss says.
I have made the experience that since I accept he is the most experienced, I can also challenge him if I think it to be necessary and do so in a skillful way (to my best ability, which often does not mean much, but he knows me by now).
In fact, he said he appreciates it a lot, because sometimes it lets him review things and come to a new conclusion.

I think this is about mutual respect and trust:
To fully accept the hierarchy, but not be too intimidated by it.
Trust each other to still think freely, for the sake of best results.

I have not heard many Zen storys or sutras yet, but isn't that a way of teacher-student relationship too?
Sometimes the Buddha gets asked strange things, but through that he comes to a wonderful teaching.
If no "lowly" had dared talk to the ancestors, addressed the abbot, we would not have so many stories.

Deep bows
Jika
#sattoday

Hi Jika,

That is just my attitude too. A manager ... whether in an office or kitchen or Zen Sangha ... who doesn't listen and accept disagreement is not a good manager. At the end of the day, a decision has to be made, and not everyone will agree or be happy. However, it is important to listen to the group.

Even in the Zen temples in Japan and China, the importance of "building group consensus", is vital. The Abbot cannot be a tyrant. He needs to listen, accept criticism, but then render a decision, hopefully with the consensus of the group. Sometimes, not everyone in the group will agree with the decision. (That means in Japan, by the way, that once the decision is made, members of the group will tend to go along even with the decision they first resisted in order to maintain group harmony. It is dangerous to have the group pulling in opposite directions over every decision ... although hopefully somebody will point out if the Titantic is truly heading to an iceburg). The group has to work to build harmony and go along as much as the manager has to listen to the group.

Gassho, Jundo

[Jakuden]

Hi,

In Alcoholics Anonymous a person with 20 years of sobriety may tell a person with one week of sobriety that they have the same rank to emphasize respect for the disease of addiction. Both recovering alcoholics have been sober since waking up. Both risk losing the sober rank of no rank by being less than humble.

Sobering fact.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

PS: If you want to see some truly awakened people, people that have been to hell and back and have seen the light, you don't need to go any further than your local 12-step meeting.

I totally believe this. What respect I have for those people... there are those who choose death from alcoholism over sobriety because it is the easier path...

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday

[Risho]

I feel compelled to write about this; it's such an interesting topic and thread! Daizan thank you; I had no idea that this was such pertinent question and important aspect of practice to myself as well.

This probably echoes what has been said to some extent; how could it not? We're all just clown fish (stealing from the bozo's on the bus. lol) swimming in the same aquarium. hahah

Anyway, this reminds me of the freedom and flexibility that this practice has to offer amid a seemingly binary world. That freedom can also be constricting; now let me reel this back in and see if I can explain this.

I can't remember exactly, but I think it was Shunryu Suzuki who was the teacher in this anecdote. The student and teacher were going back and forth, and finally the student said why do you always point to emptiness and not form?!!! The teacher replied because you are stuck in form, so I was showing the other side. Or it's like in the US. We are really really individualistic, so instead of pissing on the Buddha, our practice may need to focus more on bowing because that's where we're stuck. Zen is about removing that stuckness by going right into the messiness of where we are stuck in life.

This relates to no-rank because of course (and has already been stated here) hierarchies matter. I think with this and other ideas in Zen, there is a superficial layer and then you get into the heart of it. I think that hierarchies are necessary for things to function, but we often times switch roles in those hierarchies. Sometimes our role is to bow, sometimes our role is to lead. The way of no-rank is to not be stuck. Completely, wholeheartedly execute your role whatever the situation requires, and by that you exercise no-rank. As the CEO, you may need to be a janitor or a customer service rep. The higher in rank you get, the more roles you need to fulfill. You float between roles freely.

This happens in my job; I am a senior engineer but, ultimately, grasping to that "rank" is not healthy. If someone comes to me for help I am always first and foremost a customer service representative. I treat my job like that; to steal from Uchiyama Roshi, that would be Parental Mind.

A very wise leader in the corporate world once told me, most people think leaders are on top of a pyramid and their employees follow them and support them, but a true leader knows that it's the opposite. A true leader is on the bottom supporting their people.

You see that ethic here. Jundo states that explicitly with the priests in training. I've listened to talks where other zen teachers say the same thing. When you become a priest, you've earned a place at the bottom of the pile.

So in that way, it is no rank. You'd think that being a leader or a teacher would mean you are the boss, but being a boss is all about doing what others don't want to do, supporting others, not rejecting them, being there, guiding them.

So this no-rank thing has some very serious consequences in our lives.

I think sometimes these phrases are saying something that is quite simple, or not simple, subtle. But digging through the cryptic/archaic language throws me off. Someone just said this in another post; they said "it would be easier if we rephrased this to black and white"; I'm sorry, I cannot remember who said that but it I think it's a really good point.

I also think zen keeps an eye on potentiality; I think it allows us to open ourselves beyond our limitations. Even if we cannot read, we can read in a way or we could not learn to read. It's the same with being awake. Even though we may not act in an awakened manner, we are already Buddhas or we would have no possibility to learn how to live in an awakened manner.

So in that way, even though we fulfill a necessary role in a specific time/place, we are not completely defined by that role. We can switch, and we often have to. We grow and change into those.

Gassho,

Risho
-sattoday

[Shugen]

Thank you Risho.

Wherever the resistance is, that is where the practice is.

We are all in this together.

Gassho,

Shugen

#sattoday


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[treebeard]

Rank as regarding leadership is one thing, but rank can also apply to value. Going by value, we are all equal value because we are all part of the same universe and valuing/ranking oneself over another would be delusion. A teacher/leader, in my perception, should not think they are any more valuable than their student but merely a servant/helper of sorts.

Gassho,
Paul
Sat today

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[Jundo]

Rank as regarding leadership is one thing, but rank can also apply to value. Going by value, we are all equal value because we are all part of the same universe and valuing/ranking oneself over another would be delusion. A teacher/leader, in my perception, should not think they are any more valuable than their student but merely a servant/helper of sorts.

Gassho,
Sat today

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Hi (would you mind to sign your human first name, Treebeard?)

Also, do not forget that every person, cell, blade of grass, drop of dew, atom, star, mountain peak or valley, good day and bad day, birth and life, sickness and death, beautiful scene and saint or battlefield and villain (when we get past seeing it and them just for what they appear) ...

... is a shining jewel in a universe which is itself a shining jewel.

One might say that each and all in this world is "Top Rank".

Gassho, J

SatToday

[treebeard]

Hi (would you mind to sign your human first name, Treebeard?)

Also, do not forget that every person, cell, blade of grass, drop of dew, atom, star, mountain peak or valley, good day and bad day, birth and life, sickness and death, beautiful scene and saint or battlefield and villain (when we get past seeing it and them just for what they appear) ...

... is a shining jewel in a universe which is itself a shining jewel.

One might say that each and all in this world is "Top Rank".

Gassho, J

SatToday

Sorry, I forgot to put my name on. It has been awhile since I posted.

Gassho,
Paul
sat today


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