Do you think non-thinking in toward sleep at night?

[Banto]

I thought I'd try, just because I'm curious. Turns out, my straying thoughts are what seem to lead to sleep. So I'd catch the thought drifting and bring back to nonthinking ish and be awake again. Turns out, I'm better at that than I am on the zafu during drowsy times haha.

Can one aim toward ZZ' in to sleep or would that encourage the thought drifting if that is what leads us to fall asleep?

Might be a senseless pondering, dunno
Gassho
Banto SatToday

[Jundo]

Hi Banto,

I must confess that I read you post a couple of times and don't quite follow what you are trying to say.

There have been some studies that Brain waves during Zazen are often in state otherwise found during sleep, or which are similar to brain waves in that peaceful place we encounter right before falling asleep while in bed ... perhaps one reason that it
is easy to go over the edge into sleep during Zazen ...

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=3457896

I think many of us know that few moments before falling asleep when the world somehow becomes simpler, clearer ...

Gassho, J

SatToday (did not sleep)

[Banto]

I see I wasn't too clear in my post ... I have a Tibetan Buddhist friend at work that meditates as he falls asleep. I got to thinking with shikantaza I'm not sure that would work. Then I started noticing that it's the daydreaming that usually speeds me right in to sleep quickly. So if I tried to lay there and notice my thoughts like I do on the cushion, I'm not sure I could fall asleep while waking up to ZZ' (Opening the Hand of Thought).

Was just curious if anyone does zazen as they fall asleep. I'm content to just drift as I do, but it made me wonder what others do.

The brain wave studies are very interesting. Dr. Ritchie Davidson at the Waisman Brain imaging center studies the brain (fMRI and otherwise) on long-term meditators mostly of Tibetan flavors. Interesting findings from those studies.

SatToday

[Mp]

Hello Banto,

I wonder if it is the thought of relaxation or peacefulness that leads you to fall asleep? Just like we can use "thinking" as a form of stress reduction (not related to zazen) ... like thinking happy thoughts or of a place and time that brings us joy.

So I wonder if it is just the thought of sleep that draws you to sleep? Hmm ... not sure, but I will be a test subject a try it tonight. ... usually for me, head hits pillow, minutes later sawing logs. So no really change to think of anything. LOL

Gassho
Shingen

#sattoday

[Jundo]

Hi Rodney,

I don't think we try to "notice our thoughts" during Zazen, as much as not to grab them and stir them up.

I often engage in a form of Shikantaza when wishing to fall asleep, especially when my head is filled with all kinds of busyness and tumult from the day's events. I let go, let it be. Things become clearer and simpler. Soon (usually) .... ZZZZZZzzzzzz.

But most important, when it is time to sleep, just sleep.

Gassho, Jundo

[Banto]

If when I lie down at night, head on pillow, and try to do zazen (well laying zen haha) I stay awake. It's only when I let thoughts drift that I fall asleep. Which is prolly OK since that's the task at hand. I my friend mentioned above and he says he just does open awareness meditation (I'm not familiar with Tibetan stuff) until he falls asleep at night.
Seems interesting.

Just a curiosity of what Treeleafers do when it's time to go to sleep at night.
I can pretty much close one eye and i'm out LOL

S2D

[Banto]

I don't think we try to "notice our thoughts" during Zazen, as much as not to grab them and stir them up.

Might be a semantic issue, but I can only be diligent to not grab and stir thoughts if I first notice that one arose ... or am I going about that incorrectly?
Which is different than being on the lookout for thoughts arising. Not sure what that would be, but that's not what I'm doing. But if I don't notice that a thought arose, then I get carried off in them. To be aware that I grabbed one, maybe I should be saying that

I often engage in a form of Shikantaza when wishing to fall asleep, especially when my head is filled with all kinds of busyness and tumult from the day's events. I let go, let it be. Things become clearer and simpler. Soon (usually) .... ZZZZZZzzzzzz.
Gassho, Jundo

That's my curiosity indeed. I tried that and end up staying awake. So I've been noticing that drifting in to sleep is right when I do get carried in thought/daydream.

[Jundo]

Might be a semantic issue, but I can only be diligent to not grab and stir thoughts if I first notice that one arose ... or am I going about that incorrectly?

Sounds like you may be trying too hard. Your noticing and trying not to grab sounds pretty much like grabbing. Do you think about breathing, or just breathe? Do you think about every tree you pass down the highway, or just pass by (If you thought about each tree before letting go, you might crash the car!) Do you think about your hand each time it opens and closes? Just don't grab on, get tangled or stir them up. Let them alone, ignore them, pay 'em no nevermind.

Of course, if finding oneself caught up in a train of thought (aware that you are tangled), well, then just let go. Return to the posture (Uchiyama Way) or breath if finding it hard to just let go.

Remember that "doing nothing" is not trying to "do nothing." Trying to "do nothing" is doing something! Doing nothing is just not doing.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Jishin]

I often engage in a form of Shikantaza when wishing to fall asleep, especially when my head is filled with all kinds of busyness and tumult from the day's events. I let go, let it be. Things become clearer and simpler. Soon (usually) .... ZZZZZZzzzzzz.

I do this every night. Sometimes I drift off to sleep. Sometimes I don't and have to consciously stop. But then it's easy to fall asleep from the relaxed state of laying down shikantaza.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Jakuden]

Same here, it seems like as soon as I lie down in bed, no matter how tired I am, my mind fills with rushing thoughts and before I know it I am wide awake. When I try to let the thoughts go (although I am not nearly as successful as when I am sitting on my zafu) it definitely increases my chances of falling asleep.

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday

[Banto]

I'll try and understand my gap here between finding that a thought happens (or finding that I'm caught in a thought train) and trying to notice the aforementioned.
For now, it stumps me still, a year later ...

Gassho
SatToday

[Joyo]

Hi Rodney, I went to a meditation seminar several weeks ago. She said that focusing on something can help calm the mind and prepare it to sleep. So I try to focus on my breath or something relaxing while I drift off.

I'm not sure if this answers your question, but hope this helps.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

[Rich]

Hi Rodney, I went to a meditation seminar several weeks ago. She said that focusing on something can help calm the mind and prepare it to sleep. So I try to focus on my breath or something relaxing while I drift off.

I'm not sure if this answers your question, but hope this helps.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

Me too. If active mind, attention ⚠ to breathing relaxes and brings sleep.

Exhalation is letting go, clear don't know mind.

SAT today

[Banto]

Thanks Joyo and Rich and all. The curious thing for me is that it's slipping in to dreaming where I fall asleep. If I calm with a focus of laying or breathing ... and moreover when I notice a thought or dream begin and return to breath, then I stay awake. As though dreaming is the onramp of sleep. Maybe I had a brain injury ... LOL

Gassho, SatToday

[Eishuu]

I do some zazen immediately before bed, before lying down, for about 10-15mins. Sometimes I continue while lying down, but there comes a point when I kind of have to let go of the awareness and follow the trails of thought which lead me into sleep. I've found it's easy to stay too alert and there comes a point where letting go into unconsciousness has to happen otherwise I can't sleep. I've also noticed a lot more lucid dreams, so maybe I should try zazen in those... If I am quite aware then I notice that the dreams start while I'm still slightly awake. I think that's normal. Interesting subject.

Gassho
Lucy
Sat today