Emptiness/Suchness

[Ryan379]

Hi all,

I've been contemplating the relationship between Emptiness and Suchness (Sunyata and Tathata) lately, I understand that ultimately both are just ideas and concepts, but as ideas and concepts I've been wondering if they're just synonyms for the same thing, or whether they form a sort of yin-yang two faces of the same coin relationship (eg. Emptiness describing the no self of individuals and objects and how they form a whole, Suchness describing that objects are just as they are, perfect and pure)

Could anyone provide a bit of clarification?

Many thanks

Gassho

Ryan

Sat Today

[Jundo]

Hi all,

I've been contemplating the relationship between Emptiness and Suchness (Sunyata and Tathata) lately, I understand that ultimately both are just ideas and concepts, but as ideas and concepts I've been wondering if they're just synonyms for the same thing, or whether they form a sort of yin-yang two faces of the same coin relationship (eg. Emptiness describing the no self of individuals and objects and how they form a whole, Suchness describing that objects are just as they are, perfect and pure)

Could anyone provide a bit of clarification?

Many thanks

Gassho

Ryan

Sat Today

Hi Ryan,

It is a day when we risk falling into too much philosophizing and word defining around here. But, yes, generally in my understanding of traditional Mahayana lingo ...

They are the same thing, yet not ... not one not two. Two sides of the single no sided coin. Emptiness is the wholeness of the no self of individuals ... Suchness just things as they are. Ryan is wholly and thoroughly Ryan with no Ryanness lacking ... as well, the Suchness of Ryan is beyond all words including the word Ryan and Suchness or Emptiness ... yet all is just empty and no Ryan at all.

Something like so. Let's not say too much or we end muddling things.

Gassho, J

[Ryan379]

Thank you Jundo

It is a day when we risk falling into too much philosophizing and word defining around here.

Unfortunately I'm prone to over thinking, conceptualising and philosophising.

Once I let go of words and concepts I'll be able to see the truth that was in front of me the whole time and be able to quell the questioning part of my mind.

Gassho

Ryan

Sat Today

[Sekishi]

It is a day when we risk falling into too much philosophizing and word defining around here.

I'm about to fall into too much philosophizing and word defining, but I personally love the push and pull between these two concepts. Perhaps this is a bone headed comparison, but I see emptiness as an absolute truth while suchness is a lived experience of that truth.

The rest of this message expands on that idea...


Shunyata / Emptiness: an absolute TRUTH / that is either axiomatic, or established philosophically.

All EXPERIENCED phenomena / "dharmas" / "things" are devoid of any permanent substance - they only exist as an interdependant dance.

Other terms sometimes used include "dependent co-arising" or Thich Nhat Hanh's lovely word "interbeing". I suspect that for many Buddhists, shunyata is seen as axiomatic, and appears in older texts such as the Pali canon (Sunna Sutta):

It is said that the world is empty, the world is empty, lord. In what respect is it said that the world is empty?" The Buddha replied, "Insofar as it is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self: Thus it is said, Ānanda, that the world is empty.

~http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....085.than.html


In the Mahayana I think the best known example is of course the Heart Sutra (which there is no need to quote here). ^_^

But, for difficult modern materialist folks (like myself), we also have the luxury NOT have having to take shunyata as axiomatic. Thanks to Nagarjuna, there is a beautiful bit of philosophical ninjitsu called the Mulamadhyamakakarika (or "MMK") that establishes it logically as well:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C5%ABlamadhyamakak%C4%81rik%C4%81

I am not a philosopher (but I'd love to play one in the movies sometime), but it is my understanding that Nagarjuna's argument charts a way between materialism and nihilism. Check out 24:18 and 24:19:

Whatever is dependently co-arisen
That is explained to be emptiness.
That, being a dependent designation,
Is itself the middle way.

Something that is not dependently arisen
Such a thing does not exist.
Therefore a non-empty thing / Does not exist.

Dag yo!


---

Tathata / Thusness: an EFFECT / that is experienced via perception.

My personal opinion is that tathata is shunyata as a lived experience. When emptiness is known in the heart, mind, and bones, things are naturally allowed to rest, just as they are (and improved when needed!), without making the mistake of turning them into either "something" or "nothing". In modern parlance, we could say that the mountain is in the way of the traveller (it exists!), but it is also simply a shape in the earth's crust which is itself a product of uncountable particles which are themselves actually fields and not "things" at all. Poof! The whole mountain disappears in a puff of logic, and then the travelers must hike up it!

When we KNOW that all "things" (including ourselves) are devoid of a permanent substance, ignorance (of their true nature) dissipates, along with fear and anger. But we know that these "things" (including ourselves) are also not mere illusion, so we are free love them.

No need to cling to my copy of the MMK or Heart Sutra, it is empty, but neither will I leave it out in the rain!


---

I hope this adds something that is true(ish) and doesn't just muddy the waters.

Gassho,
Sekishi
#SatToday
#PhilosophizedToday

[Risho]

Perfect timing for a book recommendation lol

"Just This Is It" by Taigen Dan Leighton discusses just this (no pun intended)

Gasso

Risho
-sattoday

[Jundo]

Perfect timing for a book recommendation lol

"Just This Is It" by Taigen Dan Leighton discusses just this (no pun intended)

Gasso

Risho
-sattoday

Thank you Risho. Much of the book can be examined online, and the section here "Suchness and Its Teaching" is largely about this ...

https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=RlH9CAAAQBAJ&dq=%22Just+This+Is+It%22+books&q=%22The+teaching+of+suchness+is+intimately%22#v=snippet&q=%22The%20teaching%20of%20suchness%20is%20intimately%22&f=false

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Mp]

Perfect timing for a book recommendation lol

"Just This Is It" by Taigen Dan Leighton discusses just this (no pun intended)

Gasso

Risho
-sattoday

Thanks Risho, I agree, this is a good book. =)

Gassho
Shingen

#sattoday

[Ryan379]

I'm about to fall into too much philosophizing and word defining, but I personally love the push and pull between these two concepts. Perhaps this is a bone headed comparison, but I see emptiness as an absolute truth while suchness is a lived experience of that truth.

The rest of this message expands on that idea...


Shunyata / Emptiness: an absolute TRUTH / that is either axiomatic, or established philosophically.

All EXPERIENCED phenomena / "dharmas" / "things" are devoid of any permanent substance - they only exist as an interdependant dance.

Other terms sometimes used include "dependent co-arising" or Thich Nhat Hanh's lovely word "interbeing". I suspect that for many Buddhists, shunyata is seen as axiomatic, and appears in older texts such as the Pali canon (Sunna Sutta):



~http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....085.than.html


In the Mahayana I think the best known example is of course the Heart Sutra (which there is no need to quote here). ^_^

But, for difficult modern materialist folks (like myself), we also have the luxury NOT have having to take shunyata as axiomatic. Thanks to Nagarjuna, there is a beautiful bit of philosophical ninjitsu called the Mulamadhyamakakarika (or "MMK") that establishes it logically as well:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C5%ABlamadhyamakak%C4%81rik%C4%81

I am not a philosopher (but I'd love to play one in the movies sometime), but it is my understanding that Nagarjuna's argument charts a way between materialism and nihilism. Check out 24:18 and 24:19:



Dag yo!


---

Tathata / Thusness: an EFFECT / that is experienced via perception.

My personal opinion is that tathata is shunyata as a lived experience. When emptiness is known in the heart, mind, and bones, things are naturally allowed to rest, just as they are (and improved when needed!), without making the mistake of turning them into either "something" or "nothing". In modern parlance, we could say that the mountain is in the way of the traveller (it exists!), but it is also simply a shape in the earth's crust which is itself a product of uncountable particles which are themselves actually fields and not "things" at all. Poof! The whole mountain disappears in a puff of logic, and then the travelers must hike up it!

When we KNOW that all "things" (including ourselves) are devoid of a permanent substance, ignorance (of their true nature) dissipates, along with fear and anger. But we know that these "things" (including ourselves) are also not mere illusion, so we are free love them.

No need to cling to my copy of the MMK or Heart Sutra, it is empty, but neither will I leave it out in the rain!


---

I hope this adds something that is true(ish) and doesn't just muddy the waters.

Gassho,
Sekishi
#SatToday
#PhilosophizedToday

This is the sort of conclusion I've been coming to, and there's definitely a push/pull between the two. In my understanding we practice viewing the world in Suchness when we sit Zazen, which allows us to realise Emptiness, and once we realise Emptiness we are able to realise the Suchness of Reality while remembering the nature of that Suchness is itself Empty as Suchness is beyond words and concepts of Suchness and Emptiness (also Emptiness is itself Empty).

The two seem to almost chase or loop into eachother in a perpetual spiral in my mind, as in Chinese philosophy where Tao is a whole but also a harmony of Yin and Yang, reality being both Empty (Yin) and As-it-is (Yang) yet a Whole beyond the two.

Gassho

Ryan

Sat Today

[Kokuu]

Hi Ryan

Thusness/suchness (Jp immo) is a title of one of Dogen's Shobogenzo fascicles and worth a read.

In the opening paragraph, Dogen quotes Yunju:

"You are trying to attain thusness, yet you are already a person of thusness. As you are already a person of thusness, why be worried about thusness?"

Emptiness and thusness are names given to the nature of what we experience. To me it is a little like wave-particle duality or one of those optical illusions that flip between the black or white image being most obvious. Which we see depends on how we look.

Gassho
Kokuu
#sattoday

[Ryan379]

Hi Ryan

Thusness/suchness (Jp immo) is a title of one of Dogen's Shobogenzo fascicles and worth a read.

In the opening paragraph, Dogen quotes Yunju:

"You are trying to attain thusness, yet you are already a person of thusness. As you are already a person of thusness, why be worried about thusness?"

Emptiness and thusness are names given to the nature of what we experience. To me it is a little like wave-particle duality or one of those optical illusions that flip between the black or white image being most obvious. Which we see depends on how we look.

Gassho
Kokuu
#sattoday

Thank you Kokuu

Gassho

Ryan

Sat Today

[Jinyo]

I'm about to fall into too much philosophizing and word defining, but I personally love the push and pull between these two concepts. Perhaps this is a bone headed comparison, but I see emptiness as an absolute truth while suchness is a lived experience of that truth.

The rest of this message expands on that idea...


Shunyata / Emptiness: an absolute TRUTH / that is either axiomatic, or established philosophically.

All EXPERIENCED phenomena / "dharmas" / "things" are devoid of any permanent substance - they only exist as an interdependant dance.

Other terms sometimes used include "dependent co-arising" or Thich Nhat Hanh's lovely word "interbeing". I suspect that for many Buddhists, shunyata is seen as axiomatic, and appears in older texts such as the Pali canon (Sunna Sutta):



~http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....085.than.html


In the Mahayana I think the best known example is of course the Heart Sutra (which there is no need to quote here). ^_^

But, for difficult modern materialist folks (like myself), we also have the luxury NOT have having to take shunyata as axiomatic. Thanks to Nagarjuna, there is a beautiful bit of philosophical ninjitsu called the Mulamadhyamakakarika (or "MMK") that establishes it logically as well:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C5%ABlamadhyamakak%C4%81rik%C4%81

I am not a philosopher (but I'd love to play one in the movies sometime), but it is my understanding that Nagarjuna's argument charts a way between materialism and nihilism. Check out 24:18 and 24:19:



Dag yo!


---

Tathata / Thusness: an EFFECT / that is experienced via perception.

My personal opinion is that tathata is shunyata as a lived experience. When emptiness is known in the heart, mind, and bones, things are naturally allowed to rest, just as they are (and improved when needed!), without making the mistake of turning them into either "something" or "nothing". In modern parlance, we could say that the mountain is in the way of the traveller (it exists!), but it is also simply a shape in the earth's crust which is itself a product of uncountable particles which are themselves actually fields and not "things" at all. Poof! The whole mountain disappears in a puff of logic, and then the travelers must hike up it!

When we KNOW that all "things" (including ourselves) are devoid of a permanent substance, ignorance (of their true nature) dissipates, along with fear and anger. But we know that these "things" (including ourselves) are also not mere illusion, so we are free love them.

No need to cling to my copy of the MMK or Heart Sutra, it is empty, but neither will I leave it out in the rain!


---

I hope this adds something that is true(ish) and doesn't just muddy the waters.

Gassho,
Sekishi
#SatToday
#PhilosophizedToday

Hi Sekishi,

I think you hit the nail on the head here and I would agree that Emptiness is an Absolute truth and that Suchness is our lived experience - this is a subtle but
important distinction.

In the book club thread I mentioned metaphysics and I do believe this relates to the above, and the teachings of Dogen and more contemporary writers. There is an interesting paper on thezensite.com on 'Metaphysics in Dogen' which has clarified this issue for me.

The main point of the paper is that despite Buddhism seeming to shun Metaphysical speculation metaphysical knowledge is pursued as 'part of transforming one's perceptions, affects, and character in order to be in accord with the true nature of things'. I do see things this way?

My pennies worth for today - going to fit in an extra sit as an antidote to all the mind spinning

Gassho

Willow

sat today

[Mp]

In the opening paragraph, Dogen quotes Yunju:

"You are trying to attain thusness, yet you are already a person of thusness. As you are already a person of thusness, why be worried about thusness?"

Yes! =)

Gassho
Shingen

#sattoday

[Ryan379]

Without clinging to words, could Suchness/Thusness be considered as Reality itself and Emptiness as the Ultimate Truth concerning the nature of Reality/Thusness?

Thank you all for your insight

Gassho

Ryan

Sat Today

[Jundo]

Without clinging to words, could Suchness/Thusness be considered as Reality itself and Emptiness as the Ultimate Truth concerning the nature of Reality/Thusness?

Thank you all for your insight

Gassho

Ryan

Sat Today

Now I really feel that you are playing with words and definitions much too much. sir. Remember ...

Dogen quotes Yunju:

"You are trying to attain thusness, yet you are already a person of thusness. As you are already a person of thusness, why be worried about thusness?"

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Ryan379]

Now I really feel that you are playing with words and definitions much too much. sir

I agree Jundo, unfortunately my mind understands things through defining and quantifying them, though I aim to be unattached to them as best as I can.

How can one best quell the mind's craving to know, define and catagorise our experience? I imagine it is to let go and just sit

Gassho

Ryan

Sat Today