Rebirth... (cue dramatic musuc) DUN DUN DUUUUUN

[scareyw]

For some reason the whole rebirth concept seems to cause a fair number of disagreements. My take on the subject certainly seems to ruffle some feathers. It seems, to my limited perspective, that we're all just parts of some vast whole, existing under the illusion of seperation. It would stand to reason, that I have literally been born as every living being, past, present, and future. I'm also that table over there, a rock in central Europe, a grain of sand in the Sahara, the planet Neptune, and any other depentently origiated formation you can or can't imagine. Now, I don't mean the little ego "me" when I say that. It dies with my body. Heck, that thing dies every moment. It's the first thing we study to really drive home that whole impermanence thing (or if I want to speak Therevada for a moment, the arising and passing away of phenomena). It's not really that difficult to grasp. I guess the reincarnation fans don't like it because they have to face their impending demise. I just thought I'd toss that wording out there for you lovely folks to mull over.

Gassho
Carey sat today

[Jundo]

Hi Carey,

I also say that I find my late parents in every cloud, mountain, blade of grass, star, past present and future timelessly ... But, well ...

Dogo and Zen-gen went to a house [holding a funeral] to show sympathy. Zen-gen hit the coffin and asked, "Alive or dead?" Dogo replied, "I won't say alive, I won't say dead." Zen-gen demanded, " Why won't you say?" Dogo repeated, "I won't say." On their way home, Zen-gen cried, "Tell me right now teacher, alive or dead; if you don't tell me, I will hit you." Dogo said, "You may hit me, but I won't say." Zen-gen hit him.

Later after Dogo died, Zen-gen went to Seki-so and told him the foregoing story. Seki-so said, "I won't say alive, and I won't say dead." Zen-gen said, " Why won't you say?" Seki-so repeated, "I won't say, I won't say." At these words Zen-gen came to awakening.

One day, Zen-gen took a hoe into the Buddha hall and crossed back and forth, from east to west and west to east. Seki-so asked, "What are you doing?" Zen-gen said," I am looking for my teacher's relics." Seki-so said, "Vast waves spread far and wide, foaming billows flood the skies - what relics of our late master are you looking for?"

Zen-gen said, "It is a way of repaying the kindness of my old teacher." Fu of T'ai Yuan said, "The late masters relics are still present. "

Blue Cliff Record 55

and ...

Somebody asked Hakuin, "what happens after we die?" Hakuin answered, " I don't know." The man said, "Well, what do you mean, I don't know. Are you not a Zen master?" Hakuin said, "Yes but not a dead one."
http://www.zenmontreal.ca/en/teacher/aliveordead.htm

We recently had this and some other thoughts on death on another thread, including some death poems by Uchiyama Roshi ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?13915-How-do-you-to-get-over-the-fear-of-death&p=167887&viewfull=1#post167887

For folks new to all this, there are a couple of introductory threads on rebirth ...

Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - VI (Karma)

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?6102-Jundo-Tackles-the-BIG-Questions-VI-%28Karma%29

Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - VII (Life After Death?)

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?6245-Jundo-Tackles-the-BIG-Questions-VII-%28Life-After-Death-%29

Gassho, J

SatToday (not dead yet)

[scareyw]

Ooooh, more stuff to read. Thank you for doing the digging, Jundo.

Gassho
Carey thinks he might sit again today. If his procrastinating ego will let him...

[Joyo]

I agree with Jundo, here. I lost my little dog almost 1 1/2 years ago. I still miss him very much, and have times of sadness over his death. It would be wonderful to think that he is in heaven, but of that I am very skeptical. However, in my grief, I am comforted to find him in my new dog (that I adopted from a shelter), in every cloud, tree, and living thing I encounter. I cannot explain it very well, but somehow, it is as if, he is still here.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

[Jundo]

By the way, this stunningly beautiful song became popular in Japan a few years ago, here in an English version.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwkX3y8IFpQ

"Sen no Kaze ni Natte" (千の風になって) is a single by Japanese singer Masafumi Akikawa. The lyrics are a Japanese translation of the poem, 'Do Not Stand at My Grave and Weep'. ... It was the best-selling single in Japan in 2007.

Don't stand at my grave and weep
I am not there, I do not sleep
I am the sunlight on the ripened grain
I am the gentle autumn rain

I am a thousand winds
I am a thousand winds that blow
I am the diamond glint on snow
I am a thousand winds that blow

Don't stand at my grave and cry
I am not there, I did not die
I am the swift rush of birds in flight
Soft stars that shine at night

I am a thousand winds
I am a thousand winds that blow
I am the diamond glint on snow
I am a thousand winds that blow

Don't stand at my grave and weep
I am not there, I do not sleep
I am the sunlight on the ripened grain
I am the gentle autumn rain

I am a thousand winds
I am a thousand winds that blow
I am the diamond glint on snow
I am a thousand winds that blow

I am the diamond glint on snow
I am a thousand winds that blow

The original poem:

Do not stand at my grave and weep.
I am not there; I do not sleep.
I am a thousand winds that blow.
I am the diamond glints on snow.
I am the sunlight on ripened grain.
I am the gentle autumn rain.
When you awaken in the morning’s hush
I am the swift uplifting rush
Of quiet birds in circled flight.
I am the soft stars that shine at night.
Do not stand at my grave and cry;
I am not there; I did not die.

Here is the Japanese version (both lovely, and the Japanese lyrics are somehow even more powerful than in English, but I like the voice of the English version on this one) ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzROEh1tqto

The song has actually had some effect on Buddhism in Japan, strengthening a bit the movement for so called "natural burials" such as scatterings, away from traditional temple funerals.

Gassho, J

[scareyw]

The song has actually had some effect on Buddhism in Japan, strengthening a bit the movement for so called "natural burials" such as scatterings, away from traditional temple funerals.

Gassho, J

What manner of effect? I could see that idea either helping or hindering Buddhism, depending on how people are looking at it.

[Jundo]

Hi Carey,

Folks, especially the younger generations, are a bit turned off to the idea of traditional temple funerals, especially with regard to cost.

Here is an article, one of many, which explains a little about this.

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2010/10/17/national/media-national/aeon-digging-grave-for-temple-funerals/#.VmUeNvkrKUk

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday

[Shinzan]

Very beautiful. Nature is such solace for sorrow, ne?
BTW, I'm betting that last image of pine trees is of the bristlecone pines in the White Mountains near here. Some are thousands of years old. What sorrows have they seen.........?
_/\_ Shinzan

[scareyw]

Hello Jundo,

After reading the article you linked, I see what you mean. This could be a good opportunity for the temples in Japan to reform their system and image. I don't profess to know the solution, but being known as the place you go when someone dies doesn't seem terribly conducive to keeping the dharma alive.

Gassho,
Carey sat today

[Banto]

Wow, I thought I had read those BIG QUESTIONS posts before, but just reading through the "Life after death?" thread and seeing Jundo's description of "Treeleaf" is just wonderful. I don't believe I read that before. Just love it!
Going back to re-read it all. Very glad I found that, and very grateful to be a leaf here on this tree.

But I am going to make like a tree now and leaf ...

Yours,
Rodney SatToday

[Sozan]

Ah!

[Banto]

My uncle just passed away and my family is making cremation preparations and such. My mom's family is Cherokee and she found what she thought was a Native American poem for the service ... I recognized the lyrics from Jundo's post above. Found this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Do_Not...Grave_and_Weep
Just interesting to me that she chose this same set of words.
Gassho
Rodney SatToday with you all

[Kyotai]

My uncle just passed away and my family is making cremation preparations and such. My mom's family is Cherokee and she found what she thought was a Native American poem for the service ... I recognized the lyrics from Jundo's post above. Found this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Do_Not...Grave_and_Weep
Just interesting to me that she chose this same set of words.
Gassho
Rodney SatToday with you all

Sorry to hear that Rodney.

Gassho, Kyotai
Sat today

[Mp]

My uncle just passed away and my family is making cremation preparations and such. My mom's family is Cherokee and she found what she thought was a Native American poem for the service ... I recognized the lyrics from Jundo's post above. Found this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Do_Not...Grave_and_Weep
Just interesting to me that she chose this same set of words.
Gassho
Rodney SatToday with you all

I am sorry to hear the lose of your uncle Rodeny. Will dedicate my sit this evening to you, your family, and to all who have lost the ones we love.

Gassho
Shingen

#sattoday

[Banto]

Thank you guys! Very grateful to be in this Sangha
Gassho
Rodney SatToday