Is the cosmic mudra important?

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  • SoR
    Member
    • Dec 2011
    • 103

    Is the cosmic mudra important?

    Hi all,

    For the six years that I've practiced Zen, I've never quite found having my hands on the cosmic mudra to be very comfortable (it hurts my shoulders). It's a bit better if I put some kind of cushion under my hands, but never as comfortable as simply resting my hands on my knees.

    I sometimes "cheat" and put my hands on my knees for a few minutes then switch back. I'd honestly rather just keep my hands on my knees the whole time. Does the hand position really matter?

    -Sam

    #SatToday

    Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk
  • Kokuu
    Treeleaf Priest
    • Nov 2012
    • 6844

    #2
    Hi Sam

    In my opinion being comfortable is more important than having the right mudra. After all, people sit on a chair with hands on their thighs, and hands on knees is not an uncommon way of sitting in other traditions.

    Some yoga bods may tell you that the mudra produces some kind of energetic effect but, personally, I don't buy it. There have been debates about which hand goes on top of the other and how much pressure there should be between the thumbs but I have sat in different positions and not noticed any difference in how the sit goes.

    Others may know better. Juki probably has the yoga low-down on it.

    Gassho
    Kokuu
    #sattoday

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    • Juki
      Member
      • Dec 2012
      • 771

      #3
      Originally posted by Kokuu
      Juki probably has the yoga low-down on it.

      Gassho
      Kokuu
      #sattoday
      Kokuu and Sam: the truth of the matter is that there is no yoga "low down." In yoga, there are about a dozen different mudras taught to students, but most find it most comfortable to sit with their hands on their knees (often with palms turned upward and thumb and first finger gently touching in a circle). This being said, when I am in a yoga class and the teacher adds a seated meditation session, I turn to the wall and sit in our tradition, with the cosmic mudra.

      In yoga, when we do get close, it is to use the Dhyana mudra (left hand on the bottom). But I always fall back on the article written by Koun Franz about "sitting in practice" versus "sitting in verification," and I sit in practice. I always sit using the cosmic mudra, because that is our tradition and it is part of Dogen's instructions to us.

      As to the shoulder pain, Sam, use a bolster and don't sit with too much tension in your upper back and shoulders.

      Gassho,
      Juki

      #justsattoday!!
      Last edited by Juki; 10-23-2015, 01:24 PM.
      "First you have to give up." Tyler Durden

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      • Jishin
        Member
        • Oct 2012
        • 4821

        #4
        Hi,

        Be one with your body like the cosmos is.

        Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

        Comment

        • Jakuden
          Member
          • Jun 2015
          • 6141

          #5
          I seem to remember Taigu addressing this question in one of the beginner videos, either in the video itself or in the comments, and he felt that it was important but I don't remember exactly why. I do try to "use" it to focus energy in the "hara" region below the navel and sometimes put persistent thoughts into my left palm to remain there while I sit, both ideas that I gleaned from Zen instruction somewhere, not sure if that's correct though.

          Gassho,
          Sierra
          SatToday

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          • Juki
            Member
            • Dec 2012
            • 771

            #6
            I kindly recommand you to read the following essay of Koun Franz on his Nyoho blog: http://nyoho.com/2013/04/07/an-attempt-at-instructions-for-zazen/ The directions and instructions he gives for zazen are simply amazing. Gassho to all Taigu


            Just posting the prior thread from Taigu which links to the Koun Franz discussion I referenced earlier.

            Gassho,
            Juki
            #sattoday
            "First you have to give up." Tyler Durden

            Comment

            • Myosha
              Member
              • Mar 2013
              • 2974

              #7
              Hello,

              Thank you for the link.

              A keeper.


              Gassho
              Myosha sat today
              "Recognize suffering, remove suffering." - Shakyamuni Buddha when asked, "Uhm . . .what?"

              Comment

              • Kyonin
                Treeleaf Priest / Engineer
                • Oct 2010
                • 6749

                #8
                Hi Sam,

                The mudra is quite useful for me and it's pretty comfortable too.

                I sit in half lotus, with my right over the left thigh. This puts my heel right in front of my navel and serves as a support for my hands in mudra. This way my shoulders never hurt. Where are you putting your hands?

                mudra-kyonin.jpg

                And then the mudra is useful because I use it to gauge my attention and concentration. When I sit and cling to a though, my thumbs start to point up. When I am getting too comfortable and start to doze off, my thumbs relax and fall to the palm of my hand. So I let go, correct the thumbs and get back to zazen.

                Hope this helps.

                Gassho,

                Kyonin
                Hondō Kyōnin
                奔道 協忍

                Comment

                • Mp

                  #9
                  Thank you for the question Sam. Some great answers and Juki gave a good link with Taigu. From my experience, when folks have discomfort in their shoulders, it is because they are carrying tension in their shoulders, nothing to do with the hand mudra. Taigu has talked about putting a cushion under the hands to help take the weight off the shoulders, but play with it; adjust the body, allow the shoulders to roll back and down naturally. Sometimes just little tweaks here and there can make a big difference.

                  Hope this helps. =)

                  Gassho
                  Shingen

                  #sattoday

                  Comment

                  • Joyo

                    #10
                    I sometimes sit in the traditional Soto Zen way and sometimes not; I've found both do not have much affect on my zazen. I agree with Kokuu that being comfortable is the most important thing. However, if you are having pain in your shoulder you could also try being mindful of that area while sitting and trying to relax those muscles. The mudra can make my neck sore, but I've noticed this is not actually the mudra, it's my tense shoulders forcing myself into the mudra that is the problem. Once my shoulders are relaxed, the mudra is no longer painful.


                    Gassho,
                    Joyo
                    sat today

                    Comment

                    • Jundo
                      Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                      • Apr 2006
                      • 40372

                      #11
                      Some very interesting comments here. I will just offer a few more without being too insistent here ...

                      Well, first, very rarely, I have heard someone try to offer some very traditional justification such as "Qi/Energy Flow directions", and focusing energy in the "Hara" (the Qi center down that way). However, it is very rare to hear anything like that from modern teachers these days, especially in the west. Also, it is a Mudra, and some people do tend to emphasize esoteric elements. The general meaning is that the roundness is the completeness, the emptiness of the whole cosmos ... thus the name "Cosmic Mudra."

                      I can usually tell how someone's Zazen is going by how well they maintain that eggy roundness while sitting. "Sagging thumbs, sagging mind" is my moto!

                      But why do we sit sit way ... Hmmmm. It is Soto Tradition, that's why! Also, ya gotta do something with the hands, why not that? Many Rinzai folks tend to wrap around the thumb as here ...



                      What should you do? Hmmmm. It is supposed to be comfortable, and rest in the lap. Use a small cushion or towel in your lap for the hands to rest on if you cannot get them to sit comfortable.

                      I have seen folks carry their hands high, oalmost in the air up by the bottof the ribs, but I do not recommend that. It tires my shoulders and arms.

                      If you really really cannot get comfortable, then maybe but your hands some other comfortable way. However, try the cushion suggestion first.
                      ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                      Comment

                      • SoR
                        Member
                        • Dec 2011
                        • 103

                        #12
                        Thank you to everyone for their responses!

                        -Sam

                        #SatToday

                        Comment

                        • Heion
                          Member
                          • Apr 2013
                          • 232

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Juki
                          http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...t=Verification

                          Just posting the prior thread from Taigu which links to the Koun Franz discussion I referenced earlier.

                          Gassho,
                          Juki
                          #sattoday
                          Thank you very much for sharing this. It elucidates a lot of the key points of our practice.

                          Gassho,
                          Heion

                          #sattoday
                          Look upon the world as a bubble,
                          regard it as a mirage;
                          who thus perceives the world,
                          him Mara, the king of death, does not see.


                          —Dhammapada



                          Sat Today

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                          • Ongen
                            Member
                            • Jan 2014
                            • 786

                            #14
                            Hi All,

                            For ages I was unable to hold the mudra simply because I had problems (RSI) with the tendons in my wrist. Now I don't have those problems anymore, when I'm 'teaching' the zen intro course at our local zendo I always hold the mudra because I feel it helps to focus, just like any part of the proper posture does, especially when people are just starting to learn how to sit. Personally I usually sit like the example Jundo provided above, with folded thumbs. Still, when the monkey is particularly restless, I feel holding the mudra helps me to calm it down faster

                            Gassho

                            Ongen
                            Sat Today
                            Ongen (音源) - Sound Source

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                            • jake
                              Member
                              • Oct 2015
                              • 23

                              #15
                              Ah, yet another similarity between Black Elk and Zen- beautiful instructions Jundo!

                              'Everything an Indian does is in a circle, and that is because the power of the world always works in circles, and everything tries to be round.'

                              'The sky is round, and I have heard that the earth is round like a ball, and so are all the stars. The wind, in its greatest power whirls. Birds make their nest in circles, for theirs is the same religion as ours. The sun comes forth and goes down again in a circle. The moon does the same and both are round. Even the seasons form a great circle in their changing, and always come back again to where they were.'

                              Namaste and peace
                              Metta to all,
                              j

                              thank you so much for this thread


                              hehe, good 'ol round emptiness

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