Joy vs Ego?

[Jakuden]

Something I have been wrestling with has been slowly crystallizing into a question I can (sort of) verbalize.

I think I often experience a joy and gratitude of just "being," nowadays. This has seeped in over some years, most definitely as a result of practice, (including a nurturing seeds practice, which I originally learned via reading Thich Nhat Hahn) and it can occur even in the midst of difficult circumstances.

But how do you tell if the joy and gratitude is really the blue sky behind the clouds, or a selfish ego enjoying the contentment of comfort and health? Is it egocentric to be joyful and grateful while others suffer? Does it indicate an undesirable state of attachment to life being a certain way?

Gassho,
Sierra
SatToday

[Jundo]

But how do you tell if the joy and gratitude is really the blue sky behind the clouds, or a selfish ego enjoying the contentment of comfort and health? Is it egocentric to be joyful and grateful while others suffer? Does it indicate an undesirable state of attachment to life being a certain way?

You mean is it okay to appreciate the beauty of a flower while there are weeds? Is it "ego" or "Buddha" to appreciate a flower? Is one "attached" to the beauty of the flower?

I would say just to appreciate the beauty of the flower, and all the other joy and gratitude of life. Here it is, in all its glory ... savor and enjoy.

But also appreciate all the sad moments too, for they are life as well. One is not "attached" to the beauty if willing to allow its fade and change as the seasons pass. The loss and passing is beautiful too.

Even appreciate the weeds and other ugliness of the world, although we do not forget to do as we can to pluck and clean up those. (In other words, nothing wrong with your feeling joy and gratitude so long as you remember to help all the other sentient beings know joy and gratitude too).

The flower and you and all such is Buddha too.

Not sure if this responds to what you are asking?

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Jakuden]

Yes, thank you Jundo, I think so... I guess somewhere my mind is objecting to seeing beauty and joy in things or situations that might be sad. Recognizing the conflict may in itself be helping me resolve it.

Gassho,
Sierra
SatToday

[Byrne]

This reminds me of these words from Barry Magid

"We imagine that we can exile some aspect of ourselves through practice and still flourish. If we go that route, we end up like a ghost and then call being a ghost “being spiritual.” But the bottom line is that we’ve lost something of our true self, our embodiment, and if we use practice to cut ourselves off from some aspect or another of our emotional reality, we have perverted practice and will eventually have to pay the price."

Gassho

Sat Today

[Tb]

Hi.


I've heard Bernie Glassmann say, ”Just bear witness, man” which i think sort of answers the question/s i think you posted.

A priest here on Treeleaf usually says ”Its all good practice”.

It all has its place, if it weren't for the weeds, would you be able to appreciate the flowers?
The clouds come and go, but they are part of the sky, the same goes for the waves on the ocean, or the you in us.


The real question is, can you appreciate the weeds the same as the flowers?


Mtfbwy
Fugen

[Kokuu]

Hi Sierra

I find it beautiful when those moments of joy arise spontaneously and they should be appreciated as we do not know how long they will last. Feeling guilty for experiencing joy while others suffer is neither helpful to them or us although, as Byrne's great quote points out, denying an element of our experience is not part of practice.

The Tibetan practice of Tonglen (also talked about in a Zen context by Norman Fischer in Training in Compassion) can be helpful as it involves breathing in the suffering of others while breathing out our joy to them. In this way we remain connected to both experiences.

There are always weeds among the flowers and flowers among the weeds. I try to be grateful for the whole field and not to add a layer of thinking on top.

Just some thoughts from a wanderer on the way.

Gassho
Kokuu
#sattoday

[Jishin]

Hi Sierra,


Am vs Have

I am joy. I am pain. I am ego. I am no ego. I am everything. I am nothing. I am....One.

I have joy. I have pain. I have ego. I have no ego. I have everything. I have nothing. I have...Two.

In Zen we say not one, not two. One and two then at once? Am and have at once?

To be (am) or not to be (am), tis is the question (in Zen?).

I am full of sh&t.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Jakuden]

Thanks for your responses, they are all helpful. I think this is a function of practicing in solitude for so long, then finding Treeleaf. Feeling out what it is to be a Bodhisattva, and be part of a sangha... and still at the stage of being the herder trying to subdue the ox. It's a dilemma with a ring of familiarity, when I got out of school and into practice of my job, I had to learn to experience others' suffering in a way that allowed me to become action to help, instead of in a manner that was incapacitating.

Kokuu, the practice of breathing in others' suffering and breathing out joy to them sounds like the perfect medicine for this problem non-problem (And there is plenty of opportunity to go out and learn to enjoy weeds and have to pull them at the same time, in my garden!) Will try to just "bear witness" to the joy and gratitude instead of being suspicious of its' motives.

Gassho,
Sierra
SatToday

[seeker242]

Is it egocentric to be joyful and grateful while others suffer?

I don't think so because joy that is felt is one of the things that would enable you to help those suffering beings most appropriately. Joy is contagious IMO. Get as much as possible and spread it around like wildfire IMO

sattoday

[Rich]

Ditto as seeker says.

Growing up in a culture where the religions use fear and guilt to control people, it took me what seems like forever to find the natural joy in just being.

SAT today

[Jundo]

Such a joyous thread, so grateful for what folks have said.

Gassho, J

SatToday