Eyes, focus and sleep

[Jakuden]

I have clinical "dry eye...." which if I don't think about it is usually not a big deal... but during Zazen, if I go too long without blinking, my eyes will get blurry, sting and water. I just close them for a bit and it usually resolves.

However, in regards to eye wandering, I find that wandering gaze is actually more of a function of wandering mind than the other way around--if my gaze starts to wander, it is often a signal that my mind has started to wander, and is a reminder to bring my attention back from wherever it has gone. As I understand it, just gently bring yourself back even if you have to do it a hundred times over. Sometimes the sit is quiet, and the mind stays focused with little effort... other times it is tumultuous and jumping all over the place, and you constantly have to bring yourself back. So, like everything else in Shikantaza, just notice it and let it go, whether once or twice, or a million times.

Gassho
Sierra
SatToday

[Sim175]

However, in regards to eye wandering, I find that wandering gaze is actually more of a function of wandering mind than the other way around--if my gaze starts to wander, it is often a signal that my mind has started to wander, and is a reminder to bring my attention back from wherever it has gone.

Thank you! I tried focusing on stilling my mind instead of trying to bring my eyes and body to be a certain way. It certainly helped. The eyes did follow the mind's stillness after a while, then lost focus again... but today, I didn't mind. I just sat, as still and accepting as I could.

Thank you all for your inputs!


Simon
Sat today.

[Jundo]

Thank you! I tried focusing on stilling my mind instead of trying to bring my eyes and body to be a certain way. It certainly helped. The eyes did follow the mind's stillness after a while, then lost focus again... but today, I didn't mind. I just sat, as still and accepting as I could.

Thank you all for your inputs!


Simon
Sat today.

Hi Simon,

Do your eyes loose focus when you are driving a car? (I bet you they don't, or you have a serious safety and eye problem!) Sometimes when driving, one is not thinking particularly of anything ... yet one is aware widely of all things, just in case a child runs into the street with a ball, etc. You eyes staring out the windshield of the car, clear and widely aware, are not different from the vision in Zazen. We are just not particularly thinking about, chewing on, pondering, judging what we see ... we are not thinking about the past or the future (not even the child and the ball). We Just Drive Aware.

Don't start at any one spot, but neither fail to be looking at things normally (I bet you are so unfocused on any objects in your field of vision, that your eyes are literally losing focus for lack of targets). As in driving, your eyes should rest on this then that then the next thing, sometimes the whole scene. However, even as your eyes rest on this, then that, then something else ... just don't think about or judge or chew on this that and something else.

Kinda understand?

Zazen is Driving Buddha Highway with the Mental Radio Off.

Gassho, Jundo

[Sim175]

Hmm, I think I kind of understand (although I have to admit that I do zone out for a second or two sometimes when I drive!) However, I thought that soto zen practicioners sat facing a (blank) wall, which is what I did at first until I tried turning around to have more objects to focus on. If so, they would've experienced a lack of targets also, wouldn't they? And so their eyes would've come out of focus... and if they're like me, it makes it harder to not drift away.

In the end, what I understand is I shouldn't try to force anything special on my body or mind, and instead just sit down and avoid judging and interpreting whatever is in front of me, and avoid being swayed left and right by my mental chatter. Where the eyes go doesn't matter so much, just that I don't do anything with the visual information that comes from them. Would that be somewhat right?

Gassho,
Simon
Sat today.

[Jundo]

Hmm, I think I kind of understand (although I have to admit that I do zone out for a second or two sometimes when I drive!) However, I thought that soto zen practicioners sat facing a (blank) wall, which is what I did at first until I tried turning around to have more objects to focus on. If so, they would've experienced a lack of targets also, wouldn't they? And so their eyes would've come out of focus... and if they're like me, it makes it harder to not drift away.

Well, I would say that it reduces the recognized objects in the field of vision ... tables, chairs etc. ... but it is still a screen filled with objects, smudges and lines and paint dots etc., for most walls (especially the old dusty ones in most Zen temples), perhaps making the field of vision of "the road" just more abstract. However, still plenty of this that and the next thing plus the whole wide vista.

In the end, what I understand is I shouldn't try to force anything special on my body or mind, and instead just sit down and avoid judging and interpreting whatever is in front of me, and avoid being swayed left and right by my mental chatter. Where the eyes go doesn't matter so much, just that I don't do anything with the visual information that comes from them. Would that be somewhat right?

Try it for awhile and see how it feels. Maybe the eyes sometimes go out of focus for all of us (I think so ... for example, try fading out for a moment right now, pulling back from looking at the computer screen), but you are just getting annoyed and hooked a bit when it happens.

In Zazen, if something something bothersome stops being a bother ... then it is not a bother.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[alan.r]

This was (and sometimes still is) a tough one for me too. I would add that any time one's eyes are very still for a long period of time, they're probably going to go blurry and need to refocus - I see no problem with that. But I don't think the eyes in zazen are like the eyes while driving at car, or at any other time. My understanding is that the eyes in zazen are still. The eyes, if you pay attention, are moving at most other times of life. Especially while driving a car. I've never driven with eyes still and widely aware - I'd say even on a straight road or interstate, my eyes are always moving, gently maybe, but always moving, from road, to mirror, to another car, to mirror, to road, and also the scenery is constantly changing and so naturally the eyes have to focus and refocus, etc, and maybe I take in a bunch in my peripheral vision while driving, but this doesn't feel the same as zazen. Even in moments when we're calm in daily life, the eyes are almost always moving, even while watching a movie or something, though we might imagine the eyes are still, they are not. The eyes track to things of interest, constantly focusing and refocusing, etc.

In zazen, my eyes remain still, though they can get fidgety, like any part of the body can get fidgety - it takes some sitting to really let them be still, and almost every time I sit, there forms a kind of circular spot in the center of my field of vision, and sometimes there are odd visual images, all of which, I think, in daily life we don't experience because our eyes are constantly focusing and refocusing and moving position, while in zazen this activity stops. It is a little odd, but you get used to it. Just give it time.

Gassho,
Alan
sattoday

[Jundo]

This was (and sometimes still is) a tough one for me too. I would add that any time one's eyes are very still for a long period of time, they're probably going to go blurry and need to refocus - I see no problem with that. But I don't think the eyes in zazen are like the eyes while driving at car, or at any other time. My understanding is that the eyes in zazen are still. The eyes, if you pay attention, are moving at most other times of life. Especially while driving a car. I've never driven with eyes still and widely aware - I'd say even on a straight road or interstate, my eyes are always moving, gently maybe, but always moving, from road, to mirror, to another car, to mirror, to road, and also the scenery is constantly changing and so naturally the eyes have to focus and refocus, etc, and maybe I take in a bunch in my peripheral vision while driving, but this doesn't feel the same as zazen. Even in moments when we're calm in daily life, the eyes are almost always moving, even while watching a movie or something, though we might imagine the eyes are still, they are not. The eyes track to things of interest, constantly focusing and refocusing, etc.

In zazen, my eyes remain still, though they can get fidgety, like any part of the body can get fidgety - it takes some sitting to really let them be still, and almost every time I sit, there forms a kind of circular spot in the center of my field of vision, and sometimes there are odd visual images, all of which, I think, in daily life we don't experience because our eyes are constantly focusing and refocusing and moving position, while in zazen this activity stops. It is a little odd, but you get used to it. Just give it time.

Gassho,
Alan
sattoday

Hmmm. I certainly would say that my eyes during Zazen are not darting about, looking here then there. But I would not say they are fixed on a point.

I would say that they lightly move and drift here then there. Sometimes focused on something, sometimes just on the whole room and space.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[alan.r]

I would say that they lightly move and drift here then there. Sometimes focused on something, sometimes just on the whole room and space.

Gassho, J

SatToday

Thanks Jundo. That makes sense. Maybe I should've said more still than usual. But either way, eyes completely still is too rigid, and like you mentioned in the Ango talk a couple weeks back, not too loose, not too tight. Maybe this helps, Simon?

Gassho,
Alan
sattoday

[seeker242]

What is happening or not happening with your eyes, I think should be treated just like any other distraction that appears. Putting too much attention on what your eyes are doing I think is not very different than putting too much attention on some distracting thought or sound that appears. The point I think is to not "follow" whatever it is that appears. Or, to not make a big deal of whatever happens or doesn't happen.

[Kakunen]

We can not understand so Immediately. We must sit 10 year first ,and sit 10 year next ,and sit 10 year .Uchyama-Roshi said!


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[Rich]

We can not understand so Immediately. We must sit 10 year first ,and sit 10 year next ,and sit 10 year .Uchyama-Roshi said!


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Well, in my case it must be 50 years. -)😊😁😉

SAT today
SAT today

[Kakunen]

Eyes, focus and sleep

This is abbot Muho Zazen.Please watch movie about 10 minutes.http://youtu.be/6qO_PZu6Ty0


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