What makes Zen..'Zen'?

[Jakuden]

p.s. An apple is of course also an orange, and an orange is an aardvark, and I am he as you are he and you are me and we are all together. Still, I like mango’s very much, and that’s okay.

Gassho,
Sierra
SatToday

[Joyo]

I don't see where ego has to have a part in this. Someone is practicing Tibetan, or Zen, the person down the street may be a Christian, Jew, Hindu. Different flavours, all paths up the same mountain.


Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

[Myogan]

Or is it Zen up to the cushion then when sitting does the 'Zen(ness)' go too?

The past teachings I have received have always indicated everything can be Zen.
Sitting, walking, washing dishes, brushing your teeth,etc.
Just do it and be present.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[dharmasponge]

Must we BE something? I feel so much of practice (for me) is letting go of "being", and going forth with "doing".

I'm so weary of trying to maintain being A Generation X Father and Husband Computer Scientist Soto Zen Buddhist Musician in Rural America. It is exhausting.

Sitting, bowing, chanting, doing chores as required, hugging, laughing, crying. They all come and go, naturally, contingent on causes and conditions. The forms (of bows and chants) come down from others who call themselves "the Soto sect", but they live through enactment. I sit and the sitting me's. I bow, and the bowing me's.

I hope that doesn't sound smarmy, it is just like, opinioning man. ^_^

Gassho,
Sekishi
Sat and bowed and chanted and did chores today.

That's really nice,thanks!

[dharmasponge]

Hi Tony,

The "I don't know" that is talked about here is not the "I don't know" that is talked about there. The "I don't know" answer given here I think is the all inclusive one. The one that swallows everything (including itself), the one that makes Zen Zen and not Zen at once.

Just my 2 cents...

Gassho, Jishin, SatToday

Hello Jishin,

Hua'tou/Hwadu.... 'What is this'? ..... I don't know mind! I did my rounds re Korean and Ch'an Buddhism.

I guess I am answering my own question - when we sit all the Zen(ness) goes, the Japanese/Korean/Thai/Tibetan...means nothing in Emptiness. So off the cushion it feels like a bit like wallowing in the illusion rather than trying to perpetuate what might be realised/experienced when sitting. Unless you're massively realised there is a difference.....for now!

[Jundo]

I guess I am answering my own question - when we sit all the Zen(ness) goes, the Japanese/Korean/Thai/Tibetan...means nothing in Emptiness. So off the cushion it feels like a bit like wallowing in the illusion rather than trying to perpetuate what might be realised/experienced when sitting. Unless you're massively realised there is a difference.....for now!

But a funny-wonderful-wise aspect of this Way and Shikantaza is that "Emptiness" is not just empty. On the cushion and off, the complex, tangled this and that of this world, our thoughts, Zen, Christianity, Buddha, Enlightenment, Delusion, Italy and America and Japan ... Buddha statues and robes or no Buddha statues and naked ... all Empty!

In other words, "Emptiness" shines through and --is-- also each and all things.

We do not simply sit to get to a place where there is no "Zen" or "Buddha Status" etc ... but rather, to a place right in and through "is" or "is not".

This is really hard for some folks to get, but before we sit the things of this world are just the things of this world ... delusion.

After sitting, the things of this world are Emptiness, Emptiness precisely the things of this world ... enlightenment.

To just be in a place with only Emptiness, all the things and complexity vanished is (we say in the Zen world) "only 80%" (i.e., half baked).

Thus, come back to that place (how does one "come back" to what has been true all along even if unseen?) where there is Zen, statues, robes ... or not ... all good.

This morning I read something by Dogen on this, on life and death ... but you can substitute any words and dichotomies in all the world ... Buddhist/Christian/Atheist, Vanilla/Chocolate/Strawberry, Liberal/Conservative, Italian Food/Chinese Food ... (from Shobogenzo Shoji) ...

Just understand that life and death is itself nirvana and neither dislike life and death nor seek after nirvana. Only then will it be possible for us to be released from life and death…. This present life and death is the life of Buddha.

Gassho, J

Lit incense, wore a robe, SatToday, then ate some Italian food.

[Ongen]

Ok.......so does this mean that you would be content to drop all of your 'Zen(ness)' in favour of Tibetan(ness) or Ch'an(ness) and still feel comfortable in your practice?

Drop it all. Not in favour of anything else. Just drop it all. No need to be content. No need to be comforable in your practice. That's zen, in my humble opinion.

Gassho,

Ongen
Sat Today

[Kokuu]

Drop it all. Not in favour of anything else. Just drop it all. No need to be content. No need to be comforable in your practice. That's zen, in my humble opinion.

Agree totally. Once you have the conception you are a Zen student sitting Zen meditation it is no longer Zen. It is just mind making up stories.

Sometimes practice feels comfortable, sometimes it doesn't. It is the practice bit that is important, not the degree of comfort which comes and goes.

Gassho
Kokuu
#sattoday

[Joyo]

Agree totally. Once you have the conception you are a Zen student sitting Zen meditation it is no longer Zen. It is just mind making up stories.

Sometimes practice feels comfortable, sometimes it doesn't. It is the practice bit that is important, not the degree of comfort which comes and goes.

Gassho
Kokuu
#sattoday

Good point! I've had these experiences lately where everything is just dropped, still, and as it is. It's as if, the more I practice, the big uppercase Zen dissolves.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

[Kokuu]

I just read this passage this morning in Peter Matthiessen's collection of his Zen journals, 'Nine-Headed Dragon River', and it seemed pertinent to this thread, especially the last line:

"To practice Zen means to realize one's existence moment after moment, rather than letting life unravel in regret of the past and daydreaming of the future. To rest in the present is a state of magical simplicity, although attainment of this state is not as simple as it sounds. At the very least, sitting Zen practice, called zazen, will bring about a strong sense of well-being, as the clutter of ideas and emotions falls away and body and mind return to natural harmony with all creation. Out of this emptiness can come a true insight into the nature of existence, which is no different one's Buddha nature. To travel this path, one need not be a 'Zen Buddhist', which is only another idea to be discarded, like 'enlightenment' and like 'the Buddha' and like 'God'."


Gassho
Kokuu
#sattoday

[Jundo]

I just read this passage this morning in Peter Matthiessen's collection of his Zen journals, 'Nine-Headed Dragon River', and it seemed pertinent to this thread, especially the last line:

"To practice Zen means to realize one's existence moment after moment, rather than letting life unravel in regret of the past and daydreaming of the future. To rest in the present is a state of magical simplicity, although attainment of this state is not as simple as it sounds. At the very least, sitting Zen practice, called zazen, will bring about a strong sense of well-being, as the clutter of ideas and emotions falls away and body and mind return to natural harmony with all creation. Out of this emptiness can come a true insight into the nature of existence, which is no different one's Buddha nature. To travel this path, one need not be a 'Zen Buddhist', which is only another idea to be discarded, like 'enlightenment' and like 'the Buddha' and like 'God'."


Gassho
Kokuu
#sattoday

Hmmm, maybe a bit romantic, idyllic and florid in expression, as one would expect from such a gifted and descriptive writer as Peter Matthiessen (he was the teacher of my mentor, Doshin Cantor, and such a wonderful writer. Snow Leopard is one of my favorite books). Also, there is maybe a drop the flavor of their Sanbo Kyodan Lineage through Maezumi Roshi. However, a lovely statement nonetheless.

Gassho, Jundo (who can't write "worth beans", as they say in America)

SatToday

[Doshin]

I just read this passage this morning in Peter Matthiessen's collection of his Zen journals, 'Nine-Headed Dragon River', and it seemed pertinent to this thread, especially the last line:

"To practice Zen means to realize one's existence moment after moment, rather than letting life unravel in regret of the past and daydreaming of the future. To rest in the present is a state of magical simplicity, although attainment of this state is not as simple as it sounds. At the very least, sitting Zen practice, called zazen, will bring about a strong sense of well-being, as the clutter of ideas and emotions falls away and body and mind return to natural harmony with all creation. Out of this emptiness can come a true insight into the nature of existence, which is no different one's Buddha nature. To travel this path, one need not be a 'Zen Buddhist', which is only another idea to be discarded, like 'enlightenment' and like 'the Buddha' and like 'God'."


Gassho
Kokuu
#sattoday

Very nice passage Koku. You inspired me to read him again. Many years ago when I met my wife to be, she was open to building a relationship after I told her how much I appreciated Peter Matthisens book "Snow Leopard." I should have written him about my gratitude before he passed. In fact, I think this is the first time I have ever told anyone that.

Metta to you on your journey

Gassho

Randy
sattoday

[Kokuu]

That is a lovely story, Randy. I like the idea of people being brought together by a love for the same book.

Much metta to you also.

Gassho
Kokuu
#sattoday

[Ed]

...the Boddhidharma lineage! as said above...Chan... Zen...direct transmission beyond the scriptures.

I would add Uchiyama roshi's defenition of Genjokoan: THE ORDINARY PROFOUNDITY OF THE PRESENT MOMENT BECOMING THE PRESENT MOMENT.

sat2day

[dharmasponge]

Thanks everyone for your insights. I think I have just been giving us humans a hard time for being, human! We all have aesthetic preferences and that doesn't mean that we're embellishing our egos....I guess it does....but hey ho eh?