What is the difference between Zazen and meditation?

[Guest]

What is the difference between Zazen and meditation?

I want to talk about this theme.

Especially talk about Vipassana Meditaion and Shikantaza.

I read lots of book about Buddhism,written by Soto-Zen monk ,Rinzai-Zen-monk and Initial Buddhism-monk.

So I want to talk especially that what is the main method of them.

Gassho.

[Kyonin]

Hi Mr. K

In my understanding Vipassana is a very good traditional form of meditation. I have practiced in the past and it's very beautiful.

Now my problem with it is that some people discovered it's soothing and calming power and transformed Vipassana into the "mindfulness" movement, which mainly focuses in the breath, but not in ethics. To my understanding, Vipassana labels breaths as strong, short and so on.

I think Vipassana or "mindfulness" are perfect for people new to Buddhism.

Zazen is a lot harder than Vipassana because we don't have a main focus for our attention. We just let thoughts drift away without clinging or judging them. It takes practice and discipline to get to understand and to keep on sitting.

But shikantaza teaches us to let go of things, to forget the self and to unite with the Universe.

Gassho,

Kyonin

[Mp]

Hi Mr. K

In my understanding Vipassana is a very good traditional form of meditation. I have practiced in the past and it's very beautiful.

Now my problem with it is that some people discovered it's soothing and calming power and transformed Vipassana into the "mindfulness" movement, which mainly focuses in the breath, but not in ethics. To my understanding, Vipassana labels breaths as strong, short and so on.

I think Vipassana or "mindfulness" are perfect for people new to Buddhism.

Zazen is a lot harder than Vipassana because we don't have a main focus for our attention. We just let thoughts drift away without clinging or judging them. It takes practice and discipline to get to understand and to keep on sitting.

But shikantaza teaches us to let go of things, to forget the self and to unite with the Universe.

Gassho,

Kyonin

Hello Mr. K,

I too agree with Kyonin here. Vipassana, Mindful meditation, or meditation on a object is great for folks starting out as it gives them an anchor for their meditation - a point of focus. From my understanding, Shikantaza is more inline with Dzogchen meditation or meditation on emptiness and accepting just as they are.

Gassho
Shingen

#sattoday

[Kakunen]

Thank you very much Kyonin-san,Shingen-san.

Shikantaza's essence is said in Japanese 「非思量」(Hi-shiryou).This is that we are not chasing the thinking in my mind.
And Shikantaza is very important to understand about emptiness and universe of our whole world. In my experiense at Sesshin,Zazen help me.Such a experiense express our Shikantaza style is mindless,and we know that we are small.

But I can not understand about Vipassana's style of Labeling.When we label something,we always with myself,such a mindfull and our desire.If we have weakness of my own mind,such like style can good for us?

I think that Jundo said one,our Shikantaza is good and other style is good,I know.But I really can not understand of it.When I do Vipassana ,I feel my mind is very crowded.

[Joyo]

Thank you for the question Konan, and for answering Shingen and Kyonin. I was hoping some of our Treeleaf priests would answer, as I thought it was a very helpful question.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

[Nindo]

Hello Konan-san,

the labelling in Vipassana can help you to see what you think about. Many thoughts come again and again, always in the same pattern. The label makes you aware of what is going on inside you. Like this: Oh look, there is worrying. Oh look, there is planning. Oh look, there is rehearsing what I am going to say to this person. And so on.
Every time you become aware of thought, you can label it gently, then let it go. This practice helps to know yourself better and to get distance from your thoughts. It helps to take thoughts less seriously. It is important to not use the word "I" in the label. Not "I am worrying". Just "worrying" is enough.
You can do this some times if you find that it is useful, and Shikantaza other times.

May your practice go well!

Gassho
Nindo
sattoday

[Getchi]

Thank you all so much for the answers above, Kyonin and Shingen especially

I studied these techniques for a long while, and while they are good, so is shikantaza like you said and Jundo said! Below is my perspective only, i would love to gain more insight into what is/is not shikantaza.

Thank you very much Kyonin-san,Shingen-san.

Shikantaza's essence is said in Japanese 「非思量」(Hi-shiryou).This is that we are not chasing the thinking in my mind.
And Shikantaza is very important to understand about emptiness and universe of our whole world. In my experiense at Sesshin,Zazen help me.Such a experiense express our Shikantaza style is mindless,and we know that we are small.

But I can not understand about Vipassana's style of Labeling.When we label something,we always with myself,such a mindfull and our desire.If we have weakness of my own mind,such like style can good for us?

I think that Jundo said one,our Shikantaza is good and other style is good,I know.But I really can not understand of it.When I do Vipassana ,I feel my mind is very crowded.

Hello!

I studied with a friend of mine who has gone on to become a monk in the Thai Forest Tradition under Ajhan Brahm at the Bodhinya Forest Monastery. I did not ordain.

As I was taught it, vipassana is basically making our conscious thought match our current actions. Breathing, pain etc are labelled in a way that prevents us from automatically deciding if we like/dont like a thing. Thats probably why it feels crowded

It is meant to change your attitude to who you think you are; with a special emphasis on Anicca as seen through our shifting thoughts. By becoming aware of our thought process, we realise that there is no permanent "I" independant of these thoughts and that all thoughts are in fact dependant on preceding ones; that there is no stop or start to our stream of consciousness and that suffering is ignorance of the Three Marks.

At the next level, it helps to support Jhana meditation. At teh end of this stage you should have an insight into tranquility and wisdom practice, and the result is a "loosening of the bonds" of existance, a release from sam-na (samsara).

After this point, contemplation of the emptiness (void or annica) of all life and creation is encouraged, with the teacher recommending particular practices for the person. I was taught about Anicca insight, and so thats a perspective I have on teachings.

As I can understand so far, all these teachings are taught in shikantaza practice. Naturally, we gain insight into the Three Marks and the Jhana states. Labelling seems to be sorted out by the initial discomfort and agitation felt, with the gradual acceptance of our true nature fulfilling the rest of the conditions.

In my experiense at Sesshin,Zazen help me.Such a experiense express our Shikantaza style is mindless,and we know that we are small.

I believe this covers it all

[Kakunen]

Very interesting.

''It is important to not use the word "I" in the label.''

In theory, it would be important that I do not use the words ''I''

Although sorry many times said about my experience at Sesshin.In 70 hour Sesshin I keep on suffering pain but when I give up run away from suffer ,suddenly I feel connection with something outside,and helping my body from pain.

I found atrticle about Vipassana Meditaion and Shikantaza,written in Japanese philosopher　his name is Hitoshi Nagai.

http://www.h2.dion.ne.jp/~apo.2012/bookstand-magazine036.html

He said
If intentionality is cut off, a state of mind as mere events that are happening currently in my mind.

[Jakuden]

I thought I had heard Dharma talks (don't remember who), where labeling thoughts as they came up was advised ( as Nindo said, "now there is worrying, planning, etc" or "oh, now this too, and this,".) I used to do that sometimes, but was not under any understanding of whether or not it was Shikantaza. Now when thoughts or conflicts arise, sometimes I visualize putting them in my left palm ( I often have a whole bunch of people sitting in there) so they aren't cluttering up my mind, without labeling them at all. Is that more like Shikantaza?

Gassho,
Sierra
SatToday

[broahes]

I thought I had heard Dharma talks (don't remember who), where labeling thoughts as they came up was advised ( as Nindo said, "now there is worrying, planning, etc" or "oh, now this too, and this,".) I used to do that sometimes, but was not under any understanding of whether or not it was Shikantaza. Now when thoughts or conflicts arise, sometimes I visualize putting them in my left palm ( I often have a whole bunch of people sitting in there) so they aren't cluttering up my mind, without labeling them at all. Is that more like Shikantaza?

Gassho,
Sierra
SatToday

There are some schools that teach to label thoughts. Kagyu comes to mind. I have a friend that practices Vipassana that centers a lot of his practice on labeling thoughts to get a clear picture of how the stream of thoughts work. In Shikantaza (don't trust anything I think I know here) we just are aware of the thought, but no labeling or trying to force it out. We sit with all there is, just as it is. That is just how I practice, but there are plenty more here that could answer that much better than I.

Gassho,
Brooks sat today.

[Jinyo]

Hello Mr K.

thank you for your question. I have a few thoughts but I am no expert.

There are methods of meditation - method is useful - especially at the beginning of our path but I feel what happens for
each individual soon becomes a personal journey. It is good to share knowledge but we each reach a certain point of what
feels natural and 'correct' or helpful. The main point is what helps best to live a good life.

I now begin meditation with the thought of opening the heart and letting the mind be. The mind possibly needs permission
to go on doing what it is designed to do - producing thoughts. This is the minds natural state - the flow of thoughts - if we
just let it be this is akin to 'thinking not thinking' - we do not add on (which is a mode of extra thinking) by worrying, trying to repress, trying to change. In my humble view there is a possibility that actively 'labelling' our thought processes during meditation adds on to 'thinking' though I can also see its uses. I think its fine to draw on a number of methods depending
on our circumstances.

I think once we begin to experience a sense of peace/equanimity in zazen - no mater how fleeting - the body/mind recognises
and remembers this. With our whole being we instinctively know this is our ideal state - a state that has a deep relevance for how we live our daily lives. It is a 'recognition' of our ethical/emotional/practical being and our potential to live with others peacefully and to care for our planet. It is at the core of interconnectivity and our understanding of emptiness.

I like to read and think about things. Its good to discuss. But my main point of reference now is to simply sit in the way Jundo teaches. This alone has changed my life.



Gassho

Willow

Sat today

[Nindo]

Beautiful, Willow, thank you.

Gassho
Nindo
sattoday

[Byokan]

Hi Mr. K,

I did various kinds of meditation techniques for years before coming naturally to shikantaza. I don’t regret the time spent with the other practices. They helped me develop the ability to settle the mind fairly quickly. Labeling helped in learning to just let the thoughts and the body go. Breath awareness helped in just being present with what is right here and now. Focus exercises and mantra helped tame the monkey mind a bit. I still use these practices sometimes for relaxation, or to focus in the midst of chaos or crisis. I think of them as tools. Like Nindo says, I use them sometimes because they are useful or enjoyable.

Shikantaza is different, and that’s why I don’t put it in the same category as meditation, to me it is something else entirely. I will be doing shikantaza every day until my dying day. And after that too, I guess.

Gassho
Lisa
sat today

[FaithMoon]

Thank you Willow.

FaithMoon
sat today

[RichardH]

I was first taught "meditation". The usual concentration exercises where not recommended to me, focussing on the breath etc. The "object" I was taught was the totality of whatever state-of-being is present, body, mind, internal, external, subtle and gross. So in a sense there was no object of awareness, because if everything at once is the "object" there is no this-and-that. Within that basic space awareness is brought to Dukkha, to "wanting this moment to be/feel other than it is". That Dukkha is at first gross and obvious but becomes very subtle, until it is no longer suffering but something more neutral and elemental. Then even that can cease, and that ceasing is where words drop off. Some people make much of that "cessation". It is transformative and does settle certain things once and for all. But I was taught not to cling to that.

Zazen as I have been taught and have learned here, is not so different. The emphasis is different maybe, the language used. The common denominator seems to be not to cling to any state, or seek special states. When I sit now it is just sitting, simple. ceasing, not ceasing, sitting.

This is just a personal reflection please take with a grain of salt.

Gassho
Daizan

sat today