A Buddhist Studies online course: Integrated Dharma

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  • Jundo
    Treeleaf Founder and Priest
    • Apr 2006
    • 40719

    #16
    Originally posted by MikeTango
    Hi friends,
    I cannot talk for Roland and other dharma friends inclined to take this course, but I remember that at the beginning of my practice I was extremely attached to the need of “understand” ideas and concepts related to Buddhist teachings (maybe because I used to be a professor and I had a strong intellectual predominance at that time). Then I remember many years ago I took a formal course about the same concepts in the Japanese association of my city, and every year I take a time to review all my notes of the course about those complex concepts. As other friends appointed it was not only an important investment in time (it was not an online course but in a classroom) but also in money. However, for a weird reason I felt that I needed that.
    After some years of practice I have changed my mind and I agree with most of friends that think that sitting is the key, and go deep in those concepts is maybe not necessary to have a good practice. I my case that doesn’t mean that I don´t read more about dharma, but I´m most focused on core sutras and texts that help us with them, in general texts like them of Shunryu Suzuki, Joko Beck or Pema Chodron, and in podcasts of some Zen teachers in Internet. But I insist that I needed a time to change my mind and to feel me comfortable letting behind all these silly things, as Jundo said :-D. And I´m sure that there are other people like me.
    Gassho
    Miguel
    Hi Miguel,

    Well, there is a time to understand intellectually Buddhist, Zen and Mahayana history, philosophy and perspectives. This "Way beyond words and letters", by the way, was never completely beyond book study and "words and letters" (except for some rare radicals of centuries past). Primarily it meant to take the Sutras and other writings in small doses, not getting tangled in them, seeing right through them to the light which shines through and as the words. Know when to pick a book up, know when to put it down. Sit on a Zafu, not only in an armchair. Dogen, Bodhidharma, even 6th Ancestor Hui-Neng (though supposedly illiterate) were extremely well read and studied in the Buddhist texts. Perhaps it is better to say that we burn the books ... but only after we have read them!.

    Then there is a time to just do-non-do ... putting the books downs and letting the thoughts go. Stop thinking about what one has read. When sitting, just sit and do not "think about" all that complexity in the books.

    Then, rising from the cushion ... perhaps all that was written behind between and right thought-and-through the words will begin to come to life.

    A little study and reading on Zen and other Buddhist Teachings, and the words of Teachers old and today, give shape and direction to our Practice. Zazen without understanding the teachings of the Buddha and Ancestors is like formless clay. Study is necessary to properly mold the vessel being made. Yet, we see in/as/behind/through/with and without the words and letters, so it is called a teaching "beyond words and letters".

    It is rather like sailing: There is a time to read a book about sailing, study the maps and the weather reports. But then ... one must just put the reading away, get out on the open water and ... SAIL!

    Gassho, J

    SatToday (read a little today afterwards)
    Last edited by Jundo; 07-30-2015, 03:09 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

    Comment

    • GregJanL
      Member
      • Jul 2015
      • 52

      #17
      Originally posted by Jundo
      Hello Greg,

      Whether Siddhis (paranormal powers claimed by some Buddhists and other mystics) exist or not is not vital to my Practice. To me, the most amazing "mystical powers" exist in the human ability to drink a cool glass of water on a hot day, to smile, to cry, to breathe. Amazing that we are alive for such, here in this world! A couple of old talks ...

      X - Whattsa Who'sa Bodhisattva? - The Virtue of Mystical Powers


      XI - Whattsa Who'sa Bodhisattva? - (MORE) The Virtue of Mystical Powers
      http://www.treeleaf.org/sit-a-long/w...al-powers.html


      But I may also criticize and doubt the existence of many of the wilder claims for powers. I believe that "Colorado" exists while "Oz" (the one with the Wizard, not Australia) does not because I personally witness that (unlike Oz) planes seem to come and go to my town from there without incident, that I have tasted beer labeled as made there, that they seem to cast votes in the presidential elections, and that I have seen the Broncos win and lose the Super Bowl. While that all could be a dream or amazing conspiracy to fool one into the existence of "Colorado", it seems more likely that there is a "Colorado". I also have reason to believe that "Oz" is based on a book by a writer of fiction named Frank Baum, as was a Hollywood Movie with Judy Garland.

      Statistics can be bent and interpreted to point to many possibilities. It is a statistical possibility that Oz is real while Colorado is not. Before putting too much faith in a single statisticians report, you should look at the counter-evidence (after all, you have never met the author of "AN ASSESSMENT OF THE EVIDENCE FOR PSYCHIC FUNCTIONING", Jessica Utts, so how do you know she exists?)

      Please read this article ...





      But then again, anything is possible. There may be a Wizard, but not Kansas.

      Gassho, Jundo

      SatToday
      Jundo,

      It's definitely a difficult issue, it honestly feels like there are enough resources online, points and counter points that one can play the devils advocate on any issue. Give me enough time I can paint a verbal picture suggesting the sky is green and humanity is suffering from some version of a hallucinatory Oslo syndrome. making them think it's blue and stay at it until my head turns blue. This paper may be houey, might not be, proverbial 'tantalizing evidence'..

      Oz, Smoke and Mirrors, Mentalism, mass delusion assumed real are problematic to the point that it does create the realistic demand for facility to replicate findings multiple times to the scientific community in this case in relation to psychic phenomena or others..Still gets me wondering about the cognitive bias of the researchers themselves in any 'conclusive' stuff I read no matter what, never get the 'case closed' satisfaction even on mundane stuff, satisfactory but not 'done'.

      This woman was at the very least honest with her title of the paper, could have gone further into intellectual word salad and completely hidden all motive that can be proven beyond reasonable doubt of where she might be leaning. Might have even made a paper that was and is actually flawed far more popular and referred to as some end all by bandwagon types.

      These are all very valid points, I was wondering if you were completely closed to these possibilities regardless. I know I'm walking a minefield of embarrassment here, I just wonder about this stuff sometimes. It isn't too important at the end of the day since people without skill full actions and consideration for the rest of themselves can 'get' them too apparently, (the legit versions of 'abilities', whatever they are!) and use them for anything but considerate things..

      The 'simplicity of a glass of water' thing is definitely something I'm either under or overestimating the profundity of in a similar way you probably did when you described NOW 5:30 when you encountered your first teacher. My gut appreciation of it is on a very muggy day when a persons mind is calm, a cold glass of water is more 'interesting' then how much of 'Colorodo' I am aware of without the gimmicks. If that is the implication I am fortunate enough to have those experiences more often these days.

      Metta,
      Greg

      Sent from my ALCATEL ONETOUCH P310A using Tapatalk
      “A fine line separates the weary recluse from the fearful hermit. Finer still is the line between hermit and bitter misanthrope.” - Dean Koontz

      Comment

      • GregJanL
        Member
        • Jul 2015
        • 52

        #18
        Also I can't watch any of the talks yet...I have data but my carrier throddles it to a crawl after the first two gb every month. I'm on the dirt cheap data plan. This has definitely been a rewarding conversation, plenty to 'cook' besides the fundamentals to zen book that was suggested.

        Metta,
        Greg

        Sent from my ALCATEL ONETOUCH P310A using Tapatalk
        “A fine line separates the weary recluse from the fearful hermit. Finer still is the line between hermit and bitter misanthrope.” - Dean Koontz

        Comment

        • Jishin
          Member
          • Oct 2012
          • 4821

          #19
          Originally posted by GregJanL
          Freud was a very ill man projecting his own deep seated issues on people in light of modern psychology
          Hi,

          Regarding Freud, I think a certain chairman of a neuropsychiatric department teaching institution double boarded in psychiatry and neurology and author of a medical text or two might disagree with you. So I guess it's a matter of opinion.

          Regarding the other stuff in this thread, why not just sit and save energy for helping sentient beings? Just live once, ya know.

          Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

          Comment

          • Myosha
            Member
            • Mar 2013
            • 2974

            #20
            Hello,

            IMHO Sigmund Freud - a great medical doctor who uncovered important truths about human psychology, AND a gifted artist, a philosophical visionary who re-imagined human nature and helped us confront taboos, but whose theories, offered as science, fail.


            Gassho
            Myosha sat today

            Last edited by Myosha; 07-30-2015, 12:55 PM.
            "Recognize suffering, remove suffering." - Shakyamuni Buddha when asked, "Uhm . . .what?"

            Comment

            • Jeremy

              #21
              Originally posted by Jishin
              Just live once, ya know.
              Only once? That's a cue for a heated debate, with opinion clashing against opinion, isn't it?

              Gassho,
              Jeremy
              SatToday

              Comment

              • Jishin
                Member
                • Oct 2012
                • 4821

                #22
                Originally posted by Jeremy
                Only once? That's a cue for a heated debate, with opinion clashing against opinion, isn't it?

                Gassho,
                Jeremy
                SatToday
                Hi,

                I was not talking to you. I was talking to you.

                Gassho, Jishin, _/st\_

                Comment

                • Jishin
                  Member
                  • Oct 2012
                  • 4821

                  #23
                  Originally posted by Myosha
                  Hello,

                  IMHO Sigmund Freud - a great medical doctor who uncovered important truths about human psychology, AND a gifted artist, a philosophical visionary who re-imagined human nature and helped us confront taboos, but whose theories, offered as science, fail.


                  Gassho
                  Myosha sat today

                  Hi,

                  Freud stuff is great shit in vivo. But that's just my opinion.

                  Gassho, Jishin, _/st\_
                  Last edited by Jishin; 07-30-2015, 03:41 PM.

                  Comment

                  • RichardH
                    Member
                    • Nov 2011
                    • 2800

                    #24
                    Hi. I have stayed out of this kind of discussion for a while, but would like to say just a couple of things here. First of all Oz is just as real as the rock in my back yard. It is just real in a different way. The rock is a material object, and Oz is a mental/cultural object. They are both real, otherwise we could not talk about Oz or a rock and understand each other. The problem is when the type of real is confused.
                    Also, material objects, according to scientific evidence, have a miraculous beginning just as crazy sounding as Genesis. Roughly speaking all matter/energy, not just this house, or this town, or this country, or this 8000 mile diameter planet, ... but ALL the matter/energy of a hundred billion galaxies, non-began and expanded from a dimensionless point. I remember casually talking about this with a friend who was not familiar with the “big bang” theory, who thought I was making crazy stuff up, being really loopy. Science... sober, no-fantasy, science followed its own nose to the doorstep of miracle, mystery, and Wonder . How does the entire universe expanding from a dimensionless point sound any more probable than the days and nights of Brahma?... or the worlds within world of the Kepler Space Telesco...uh... I mean the most fevered sounding Mahayana sutra? Today's knowledge will appear just as silly tomorrow as aether and mesmeric fluids look to us today, and I would bet all the hydrocarbon dunes on Titan that the future will be full of wild surprises. In the meantime I'm going to download an audio book and visit Oz this afternoon. But I won't try to kick it.

                    Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.



                    Just blabbing

                    Gassho
                    daizan

                    sat today
                    Last edited by RichardH; 07-30-2015, 08:56 PM.

                    Comment

                    • GregJanL
                      Member
                      • Jul 2015
                      • 52

                      #25
                      Originally posted by Jishin
                      Hi,

                      Regarding Freud, I think a certain chairman of a neuropsychiatric department teaching institution double boarded in psychiatry and neurology and author of a medical text or two might disagree with you. So I guess it's a matter of opinion.

                      Regarding the other stuff in this thread, why not just sit and save energy for helping sentient beings? Just live once, ya know.

                      Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_
                      Jishin,

                      I'm not sure who you are referring to, perhaps this is a intelligent and helpful man, a doctor house of western mind medicine or maybe not..

                      The reality of the situation is that mental health is trying to treat mental health problems that they themselves are either unsure to what ideal of 'sanity' they are trying to treat towards. Hard to fix broken when by the admission of most psychology types I talked to don't even know what 'normal' is supposed to be.

                      There are factors for well being, like lets say having enough food to eat or a safe place to rest ones head that the solipsist-like mind only people completely miss when trying to figure out why a food starved individual is not responding well to questions. The person asking never considers much beyond the point of interaction, not the causality of them being ill. It's not nurture vs nature or nature vs nurture, they both play a role in well being.

                      Like with everything, Between Buddha and a stoner thinking they are Buddha, Dr House and the hacks who's work he has to heroically fix there is a gradient. Unfortunately it's not clear where someone falls in the help giving end of this gradient but everyone certainly doesn't have the same level of applicable insight from even the exact same book since their previous knowledge base will have a play on the newer one with or without them understanding how and why.

                      I think that the intellectual ivory tower of academia has grown very very far out of touch with what happens in the world. Too much 'good enough because I can sell it to a journal, not because it makes sense'. Not just from psychology..That I'm no expert of...Beginners mind in sincerity at all times and not just rhetoric..

                      This applies to everything in a real way, computer generated papers getting into real journals due to a lack of quality checking from either side. This is why even some chief head of a million fields is subject to inquiry to me since I don't know where the bs starts and ends, I don"t even know if it can be really known.

                      Here's one article about the cg papers in journals, not the one I first read but it's something.

                      More and more academic papers that are essentially gobbledegook are being written by computer programs – and accepted at conferences


                      Metta,
                      Greg



                      Sent from my ALCATEL ONETOUCH P310A using Tapatalk
                      “A fine line separates the weary recluse from the fearful hermit. Finer still is the line between hermit and bitter misanthrope.” - Dean Koontz

                      Comment

                      • Jishin
                        Member
                        • Oct 2012
                        • 4821

                        #26
                        Hi Greg,

                        You have a lot of energy.

                        Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

                        Comment

                        • Jundo
                          Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                          • Apr 2006
                          • 40719

                          #27
                          Originally posted by Daizan
                          Hi. I have stayed out of this kind of discussion for a while, but would like to say just a couple of things here. First of all Oz is just as real as the rock in my back yard. It is just real in a different way. The rock is a material object, and Oz is a mental/cultural object. They are both real, otherwise we could not talk about Oz or a rock and understand each other. The problem is when the type of real is confused.
                          Also, material objects, according to scientific evidence, have a miraculous beginning just as crazy sounding as Genesis. Roughly speaking all matter/energy, not just this house, or this town, or this country, or this 8000 mile diameter planet, ... but ALL the matter/energy of a hundred billion galaxies, non-began and expanded from a dimensionless point. I remember casually talking about this with a friend who was not familiar with the “big bang” theory, who thought I was making crazy stuff up, being really loopy. Science... sober, no-fantasy, science followed its own nose to the doorstep of miracle, mystery, and Wonder . How does the entire universe expanding from a dimensionless point sound any more probable than the days and nights of Brahma?... or the worlds within world of the Kepler Space Telesco...uh... I mean the most fevered sounding Mahayana sutra? Today's knowledge will appear just as silly tomorrow as aether and mesmeric fluids look to us today, and I would bet all the hydrocarbon dunes on Titan that the future will be full of wild surprises. In the meantime I'm going to download an audio book and visit Oz this afternoon. But I won't try to kick it.


                          Lovely. I am going to steal some of these perspectives for the "Skeptical Buddhist" podcast interview this weekend.

                          Science... sober, no-fantasy, science followed its own nose to the doorstep of miracle, mystery, and Wonder . How does the entire universe expanding from a dimensionless point sound any more probable than the days and nights of Brahma?... or the worlds within world of the Kepler Space Telesco...uh... I mean the most fevered sounding Mahayana sutra?

                          What we take as this "solid, real world" is something of a fiction by Buddhist perspective (in fact, you are just experiencing right now a "virtual" simulation or recreation somewhere in your brain of the room where you sit whereby light and other data enters through the eyes and other senses, is turned into electro-chemical signals and reprocessed in the brain ... with representational images (which may or may not look like what is "out there" ... assuming something is "out there"), categories of objects, names, judgments about the objects and (most centrally) the self-other divide imposed. Much of our Buddhist Practice is to pierce this fact, see the "Wizard" behind the curtain of what is going on with that process. However, as you say, "The problem is when the type of real (and type of unreal) is confused."

                          It is a bit beyond the discussion here about what makes our dreams and hallucinations different from the "virtual reality" of daily life encountered in the brain, but it is such aspects as regularity, consistent patterns, social agreement, predictability, testability. For example, if I (what I experience as "I") get on a plane (experienced by me only through my senses, of course) and head to Kansas City, put white cow milk in the refrigerator at my friends house and close the fridge door, it is probably going to get cold and be there when I open the door again (unless my friend drinks it). There is a stable pattern and predictability (good for plane flying, as the pilot's controls, the shape of the sky and the runway don't keep changing! That is why we prefer our pilots not to fly on LSD! ). In a dream or hallucination, the milk may be constantly changing colors, come from a dragon or monkey instead of a cow, get hot and turn to wine, which pattern constantly changes wildly.

                          Today's knowledge will appear just as silly tomorrow as aether and mesmeric fluids look to us today
                          Yes, we must not over-rely on "science" either. An old thread from this forum (which I can only find because this forum follows predictable thread search rules) ...

                          Let me mention too that a faith in science to excess, whereby "only" science has the answers and all of life ... love, poetry, beauty ... can be reduced to a test tube or an equation ... can also be dangerous, also a kind of ignorance by "scientism". DNA and Darwin, protons and quarks, carbon and oxygen ... while amazing and wondrous, each holding the building blocks of reality ... can also miss the "Big Picture" if we focus too much on those alone. Furthermore, I believe that many of our most accepted beliefs today will someday be chuckled at by people of the future, much as we now chuckle at the beliefs of people of the 17th century (22nd Century husband talking to wife: "Martha, can you believe that those naive people 100 years ago still believed in gravity?" )
                          For those interested, a couple more old threads on Buddhism and Science ...





                          Gassho, J

                          SatToday
                          Last edited by Jundo; 07-31-2015, 04:41 AM.
                          ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                          Comment

                          • Anshu Bryson
                            Member
                            • Aug 2014
                            • 566

                            #28
                            Here is a resource that IS free; again, only for those who care (so please don't "just sit" me... )

                            SAKURA188 adalah situs slot terpercaya dengan cara memberikan metode paling mudah maxwin dan game terbaru terpopuler Se-Indonesia.


                            Gassho,
                            Anshu

                            -sat today-

                            Originally posted by Roland
                            The course is not free but there's a discount for Tricycle-members.

                            Comment

                            • MikeTango
                              Member
                              • Jan 2015
                              • 85

                              #29
                              Originally posted by Jundo
                              A little study and reading on Zen and other Buddhist Teachings, and the words of Teachers old and today, give shape and direction to our Practice. Zazen without understanding the teachings of the Buddha and Ancestors is like formless clay. Study is necessary to properly mold the vessel being made. Yet, we see in/as/behind/through/with and without the words and letters, so it is called a teaching "beyond words and letters".

                              It is rather like sailing: There is a time to read a book about sailing, study the maps and the weather reports. But then ... one must just put the reading away, get out on the open water and ... SAIL!
                              Thanks a lot my friends for such an interesting thread.
                              And thank you Jundo for your kind teaching. I found the sailing metaphor frankly great.
                              Gassho
                              Miguel
                              _(Sat today)_

                              Comment

                              • RichardH
                                Member
                                • Nov 2011
                                • 2800

                                #30
                                Originally posted by Jundo

                                ...... I am going to steal some of these perspectives for the "Skeptical Buddhist" podcast .......
                                I thought I stole them from you...


                                Gassho
                                Daizan

                                sat today

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