Eckhart Tolle and the Pain-Body

[frjames]

Re: Eckhart Tolle and the Pain-Body

From the video: "Christians, open your eyes. There is only one Truth."

There may be only One Truth but there are any roads that lead to It.

When John Paul II was alive, he encouraged dialogue with the non-christian religions. His famous (infamous) 1986 visit to Assisi, the home town of St. Francis, showed him praying together with buddhists and hindus and others which the fundamentalist Catholics promptly decried. For JPII, dialogue need not be feared but embraced.

Let us pray...uhm...let us sit.

Fr. James

[disastermouse]

Re: Eckhart Tolle and the Pain-Body

What Eckhard called the pain body, Sidd called 'karma' or 'conditioned experience'. The Tibetans call it one of the six realms.

The problem with Eckhard is that there's no practical entrance point. I had a 'Buddhism-free' kenaho experience. I had a bit of a hard time examining the method by which that realization was attained and hence found it difficult to point people to the experience so that they can see it themselves. Stumbling into Zen was a blessing! Here's a methodical and scientific means by which falsehood simply drops away.

Eckhard shows a picture that's relatively true - but it's a description! If you meditate for any length if time, the description will have more meaning for you. Just like all the written or spoken Dharma - if it isn't lived and examined in your own experience - it's just decoration.

Chet

[mindfulshrink]

Re: Eckhart Tolle and the Pain-Body

I initially started this thread because I felt that Eckhart Tolle's way of explaining part of our suffering which he calls "the pain-body" was very helpful and I wondered if anyone else had read or heard his explanation.

Very briefly he describes an energy field in our bodies which is the remnants of pain left behind by every strong emotion that is not fully faced, accepted and then let go of. This usually begins in childhood but also continues into adolescence and adulthood. He calls it the false sense of self which is the basis of our life and can cause not only ourselves to suffer but those around us, mostly our nearest and dearest.
It thrives on negative thinking and drama in relationships, and when it arises it wants to make others miserable in order to feed on their negative reactions, and of course awakens their own pain-body. ( Many rows within marriage can testify to this.)

Hi Jenny,

These days, there's a lot of terminology that gets a bit frou-frou IMHO when we try to deal with issues of physical/emotional pain. In my work with managing pain (physical and emotional in myself and my patients), I really try to steer clear of anything that isn't evidence-based but that becomes a tough balance when my patients really want to "work with what Tolle said in ." There have been many a long session (I wish they were sesshins) about energy fields and as best I can I try to bring it back to physiology (boooring!) and cognitive therapy (Hard Work!). At some level I can translate Tolle into something resembling "good science". But gosh, it's an effort to get past the craving for an easy answer. No one likes to hear that emotions are physiological; that's just not noble drama - although it is a Noble Truth of Dharma. :wink:

Anyway.... IMHO What Tolle calls the "false sense of self" to me is (not simply but just) the self that emerges given the causes and conditions of the moment but onto which we throw ourselves to avoid feeling vulnerable. Perhaps all I'm learning from Tolle is that there are more parsimonious ways to say the same thing and those things have been said and substantiated by others in more elegant and applicable ways.

I once had someone withdraw from our mindfulness-based therapy course because she already knew about being in the "Now". There was no problem with the fact that she wanted to leave the course after the first class. What struck me was her reasoning: she didn't want the "Now" she had with its challenge of pain and its implications and was upset with me because I wasn't going to offer anything different.

Gassho,
Ly

[disastermouse]

Re: Eckhart Tolle and the Pain-Body

I laugh and laugh at people who say 'emotions are physiological'. Intrinsically we know that such a statement is idiotic - but if a well paid professional says it, we accept it as science.

There is no science that can reduce emotion to physiology. All science can say is there is a correlation - and shame on you for buying and propagating that particular piece of dogma.

Emotions bound up with matter, sure. Reducible to matter - that's just dogma. Not only that, but your patronizing tone is an affectation of superiority meant to cover your own insecurity, be it conscious or not. Such lack of introspection MUST prevent you from being the most helpful therapist you could be.

Oh yeah, welcome to Treeleaf.

Chet

[Rich]

Re: Eckhart Tolle and the Pain-Body

Chet, Isn't an emotion both a mind and body state. ie mental and physiological. example: stress gives yu a headache

I understand Tolle's pain-body model but I don't know what his solution is. What is it?

[disastermouse]

Re: Eckhart Tolle and the Pain-Body

Wow, my last post was a smidge venemous - sorry about that.

Body and mind aren't really separate. I guess I have an issue with a particular form of psychotherapy that is particularly reductionist and materialist. I agree that Tolle's 'pain body' is more poetry than science. I just think that the reductionist materialist alternative offered by that poster (on iPhone and cumbersome to look up right now. Sorry.) was patronizingly dogmatic and inexpressive of Dharma. One does not experience a death or divorce as a (merely) physiological event. I also just disagree with pure behaviorism as 'whole' therapy. In my case DBT would have aimed at symptom control for my Borderline PD. The thing was, I didn't want to just have better behavior in light of oversensitive emotional triggers - I wanted to reduce the actual response. For THAT sort of healing, you have to get into the 'black box' empathetically - not reduce emotions to mere physiological responses and attendant behaviors.

Chet

[Jenny]

Re: Eckhart Tolle and the Pain-Body

Hi Ly, I began this thread in April 08 mainly because I thought Tolle's description of "the pain-body" was
written in simplistic terms over 52 pages in A New Earth, and would be helpful for a layperson who knew
nothing of zazen and sitting and wanted to find a way out of the maze of negative thoughts and their
subsequent emotions they found themselves in every so often.

To answer Rich - yes Tolle does suggest a solution which is (nothing new here for Zen practitioners)to be
aware of the negative thoughts arising, the energy in the body that follows e.g. anger, and then to
acknowledge, allow, and then disidentify with both. In other words not to get hooked! (I still get
"hooked" every so often myself unless I catch it in time. However it's all grist for the mill.)

Jenny

[Rich]

Re: Eckhart Tolle and the Pain-Body

Hi Ly, I began this thread in April 08 mainly because I thought Tolle's description of "the pain-body" was
written in simplistic terms over 52 pages in A New Earth, and would be helpful for a layperson who knew
nothing of zazen and sitting and wanted to find a way out of the maze of negative thoughts and their
subsequent emotions they found themselves in every so often.

To answer Rich - yes Tolle does suggest a solution which is (nothing new here for Zen practitioners)to be
aware of the negative thoughts arising, the energy in the body that follows e.g. anger, and then to
acknowledge, allow, and then disidentify with both. In other words not to get hooked! (I still get
"hooked" every so often myself unless I catch it in time. However it's all grist for the mill.)

Jenny

Unfortunately for negative thinking and fortunately for positive thinking some of it is so deeply habituated that it is almost impossible to dissassociate or 'disidentify' with it but we keep trying. Getting hooked and spitting out the hook is a continuous practice. If I had seen this only intellectually (like tolle's teaching) without sitting/koan practice, I don't think it would have been worth as much.
/Rich

[Jenny]

Re: Eckhart Tolle and the Pain-Body

I absolutely agree with you Rich. I gave the book to some members of my family who did understand
initially and appreciated particularly the part re the pain-body. However as they have no interest in
Zen and do not sit, it seemed to be only a momentary understanding and soon dissipated. Yes the work of each moment is on-going, and I am so grateful for what I have learnt through Zen practice.
Jenny

[disastermouse]

Re: Eckhart Tolle and the Pain-Body

Hi Ly, I began this thread in April 08 mainly because I thought Tolle's description of "the pain-body" was
written in simplistic terms over 52 pages in A New Earth, and would be helpful for a layperson who knew
nothing of zazen and sitting and wanted to find a way out of the maze of negative thoughts and their
subsequent emotions they found themselves in every so often.

To answer Rich - yes Tolle does suggest a solution which is (nothing new here for Zen practitioners)to be
aware of the negative thoughts arising, the energy in the body that follows e.g. anger, and then to
acknowledge, allow, and then disidentify with both. In other words not to get hooked! (I still get
"hooked" every so often myself unless I catch it in time. However it's all grist for the mill.)

Jenny

He does suggest it...but it's sort of like suggesting that toddlers learn aviation. Tolle doesn't suggest a method by which to catch the thoughts or to become conscious enough to be aware.

Chet

[Jenny]

Re: Eckhart Tolle and the Pain-Body

I see what you mean, Chet. Eckhart Tolle comes under the umbrella of Non-Duality/Advaita teachers.
I listen to quite a few of their interviews on http://www.conscioustv.com as I find them interesting. However
one thing I have noticed without fail about them is the fact that although every one of them seems to
have previously been involved in meditation, be it Zen, T.M. Vipassana etc. and some even for 30 years
or more, they all insist that this is not what caused their "breakthrough", "shift" or "Self-Realization", and that it is, in fact, not necessary. I find this puzzling.

Jenny

[disastermouse]

Re: Eckhart Tolle and the Pain-Body

Because they are technically correct. Meditation isn't required. Also, meditation incorrectly performed is mere concentration and is as likely to block your realization as facilitate it. As long as you think that enlightenment is some state other than the state you are in - you're blocked. That's one of the meanings of 'gateless gate' or 'enter from there' or my favorite - Lin Chi's 'What at this moment is missing?'

The best thing to do, IMHO, is forget about enlightenment or realization as an idea and simply attend to the present moment with an attitude of curious vividness. To the extent that you are obsessed with realization, the more it becomes just one more thing that the self wants to check of its list - the ultimate achievement.

Even though Soto Zen goes a little wayward with its 'posture-Nazi' ways and the popular misconception among its practitioners that an intellectual understanding that 'you are already enlightened' has any meaning if one hasn't tasted it - even with those limitations, it's still a moderately decent path. Honestly, every path has blocks and all of those blocks are overcome by the sheer ruthlessness of self-honesty. Soto approached with ruthless honesty will lead you through the 'gateless gate'. Same with Rinzai. Hell, same with Christianity - although ruthless honesty is typically not promoted there.

IMHO.

Chet

[Rich]

Re: Eckhart Tolle and the Pain-Body

The best thing to do, IMHO, is forget about enlightenment or realization as an idea and simply attend to the present moment with an attitude of curious vividness.
Chet

I agree with your statement above but when you say 'meditation isn't required' I would ask that you consider that sitting zazen is actually just attending to the present moment and the posture with its maintenance is the balanced state itself.

[disastermouse]

Re: Eckhart Tolle and the Pain-Body

The best thing to do, IMHO, is forget about enlightenment or realization as an idea and simply attend to the present moment with an attitude of curious vividness.
Chet

I agree with your statement above but when you say 'meditation isn't required' I would ask that you consider that sitting zazen is actually just attending to the present moment and the posture with its maintenance is the balanced state itself.

Do you think that this attitude is only expressed through sitting?

Chet

[disastermouse]

Re: Eckhart Tolle and the Pain-Body

I'm just popping in for a second to clarify something:

When I say 'meditation isn't technically necessary' - notice the 'technically'. What I mean by that is that spontaneous awakening is possible - if a smidge unlikely. But then again, how many people do you know who meditate and are not yet awake? Meditation can be used for all sorts of wrong-view type pseudo-spiritual excursions. In fact, MOST meditation is used this way because most people aren't really all that interested in waking up - they're interested in the idea of being a person who is awake. These are totally different things. Heck, a lot of people in Soto Zen aren't interested in either. It's considered a bit gauche or in bad taste to even admit an interest in awakening. So they become control freaks, posture-Nazis, and spiritual athletes instead. I think a lot of this is the slightly off-the-mark advice of teachers who want to STRONGLY discourage the second idea (the idea of becoming a self who has achieved 'awakeness') and end up discouraging both waking up AND the misunderstood drive to become one who is awake.

Then again, there is also the richness of the dream properly participated in - and yet oddly, you cannot truly participate in the theater of life if you have no inkling that it is indeed a bit of theater.

IMHE, IMHO

Chet