Art and Suffering

[Byrne]

When America was still 13 colonies, a group of slaves from Algeria rose up near what is now Charleston South Carolinia. They beheaded several white people and marched along the Edisto river headed in hopes of reaching St Augustine where they could join the Spanish army convert to Catholicism and become free men.

Along the way they beat on drums sending coded signals in the syncopated rhythms to other slaves to join their militia. Eventually the group grew to 100 men. They were eventually caught by a militia set up by all 13 colonies. Their severed heads were lined along a road that is now highway 17 that connects Charleston to Savannah GA. I've driven that road many many times. I will be on it next week as a matter of fact.

In South Carolinia and and many other colonies drums became forbidden. In 1969 the city of Charleston bulldozed an African burial ground near the original settlement. The site contained many cultural artifacts, all destroyed. Today a plaque there swears it was a "cultural misunderstanding" I'm not kidding.

No one can deny the importance and influence of black music and art in American culture. Not just the USA, but the entire hemisphere from the top down and consequently the rest of the world too.

gassho

Sat Today

[RichardH]

OK Daizan, in my defence I would like to point out that what I actually said was that I was not speaking of the generalised faux artist poverty.
I had noted your previous 'gutter' comment and realised you had come from a hard place, I was not suggesting at all that hard place was the faux artist poverty, as you may have read in a previous post it was the homeless that had come from all sorts of hard places that for three years I was involved in helping so when I saw the word gutter I knew not to judge. I was actually in my stumbling way trying to acknowledge my cynicism, agreeing with your previous comment and yet defending, not that I care to defend, my point about poverty is not conducive to self expression.
I do care if I have annoyed you or brought up stuff, for which I apologise, because what you have said here in this thread has my respect.

Hi Stev.. You have not annoyed me. The subject of poverty doesn't annoy me or have any discomfort for me. But the subject of art.. or Art. Well , yes that does annoy.

Cynicism about art and the art scene is very understandable, because there is much cynicism within it. The "gallery scene" does depend on the patronage of the wealthy. The wealthy buy my work through galleries. That alone is not a problem. Throughout history art (as well as monastic or religious communities) have been supported by wealthy people, by princes and prominent families.
What causes eyes to roll is the shmoozing, the networking, and the gaming of fame. There is a perception that talent is not needed to make it in the Art scene, and there is some truth to that. This is because the craft element of art is no longer the measure of its quality or value. Most people who do not have a special interest in art, measure it by the craft element... the sense of something extra-ordinary is being achieved, and they smell something fishy in the post-modern cleverness "that my kid can do", or in installations that are like in-jokes on signs and meanings meant for an elite. There is and always will be bullshit and bullshitting. There will always be trendiness, and shmoozing, and elites spinning off into their own little world. But, there are also people with vision and talent and a calling, just as there have always been. I know or have known many artists of all kinds ..some serious, some not, some into just being artists, some fumbling along... but everyone has had thier own story, and the beautiful thing about today is that things have blown wide open. There is no elite saying what is real art and what isn't. It is a free-for-all. There is so much going on that can't be defined by an "ism". There are people coming from every kind of background..


now I'm going to forget about "Art" and soak in a tub.


Gassho
Daizan

sat today

[Byokan]

Oh, Ansan. Thank you for saying that, but you give me far too much credit. It really is that I have very low standards! lol And maybe I'm just wearing rose-colored glasses. But if this makes the world seem full of meaning and beauty, I am glad. After all things only have the meaning that we give them. I do see incredible beauty in those holocaust drawings. Not in the literal events they depict, but in the hope and bravery of a woman to secretly teach drawing in a concentration camp, and in the willingness of the children to share their experience, and their creativity and skill in doing so.



Gassho
Lisa
sat today

Aw, lets not fight. As Daizan said at the beginning, it’s all very subjective. Part of that is because people define art differently. It sounds like Stev is talking about Art, high art, fine art, which of course does require training and materials and time and space. Some of us -- maybe the less artistic! -- define art in a much broader way. To me, art (little a) is also found in craft, knitting a hat, or cooking. It’s arranging your altar in a pleasing way. It’s making up a dumb song for your kitty with her name in it. Doing the chicken dance at your daughters wedding. Growing flowers near the front door. Singing to a crying baby. Writing a love poem to your sweetie. Thinking of a creative solution to a problem at work. Turning a witty phrase to make people laugh. There used to be a drunken homeless guy that would make up poems and shout them out at the bus stop. Why? Just to connect, I think. The graffiti art in areas where the drug addicts and gangs gathered in Seattle was phenomenal. When I was a wee thing, a group of girls used to sit in a circle on the playground and make up stories, drawing pictures in the dirt with a stick! All of this arises just from being human and living day to day. But you know, for many years I too thought Art was just the higher arts. Now I feel differently. There’s no right or wrong. I think if you have a broad definition and look around, you'll see art everywhere. A narrower, more specific definition makes art a rarity.

Back to the OP, I do think deep suffering, poverty, hunger, loss of freedom, illness, etc. can actually leave people with very little to hold onto except art. I’d guess that in those terrible situations, telling stories of hope or singing a song to comfort would be incredibly valuable and a natural thing to do. Check out this art from a concentration camp:

http://kurioso.es/english-2/the-kids-who-lived-and-drew-the-holocaust/

Now if you don’t consider a child’s drawing Art, then this has no relevance. It's subjective.

Gassho
Lisa
sat today
and know very little about art really

Lisa, you are an artist of the highest kind...you see love and life and meaning beyond tools and words. Thank you for this lovely comment that opens all eyes to what art...big or little a/A...is. Your words should reverberate throughout this forum. Thank you for your wisdom and eloquence.

Gassho,
Ansan

SatToday

[Stev]

Thanks for the holocaust art which obviously is art from suffering, it shows suffering it oozes suffering and anyone who can call that beauty is well I have no words for them. I cannot see any beauty in that art just deep lost suffering.


sat today

[Byokan]

Aw, lets not fight. As Daizan said at the beginning, it’s all very subjective. Part of that is because people define art differently. It sounds like Stev is talking about Art, high art, fine art, which of course does require training and materials and time and space. Some of us -- maybe the less artistic! -- define art in a much broader way. To me, art (little a) is also found in craft, knitting a hat, or cooking. It’s arranging your altar in a pleasing way. It’s making up a dumb song for your kitty with her name in it. Doing the chicken dance at your daughters wedding. Growing flowers near the front door. Singing to a crying baby. Writing a love poem to your sweetie. Thinking of a creative solution to a problem at work. Turning a witty phrase to make people laugh. There used to be a drunken homeless guy that would make up poems and shout them out at the bus stop. Why? Just to connect, I think. The graffiti art in areas where the drug addicts and gangs gathered in Seattle was phenomenal. When I was a wee thing, a group of girls used to sit in a circle on the playground and make up stories, drawing pictures in the dirt with a stick! All of this arises just from being human and living day to day. But you know, for many years I too thought Art was just the higher arts. Now I feel differently. There’s no right or wrong. I think if you have a broad definition and look around, you'll see art everywhere. A narrower, more specific definition makes art a rarity.

Back to the OP, I do think deep suffering, poverty, hunger, loss of freedom, illness, etc. can actually leave people with very little to hold onto except art. I’d guess that in those terrible situations, telling stories of hope or singing a song to comfort would be incredibly valuable and a natural thing to do. Check out this art from a concentration camp:

http://kurioso.es/english-2/the-kids-who-lived-and-drew-the-holocaust/

Now if you don’t consider a child’s drawing Art, then this has no relevance. It's subjective.

Gassho
Lisa
sat today
and know very little about art really

[Stev]

OK Daizan, in my defence I would like to point out that what I actually said was that I was not speaking of the generalised faux artist poverty.
I had noted your previous 'gutter' comment and realised you had come from a hard place, I was not suggesting at all that hard place was the faux artist poverty, as you may have read in a previous post it was the homeless that had come from all sorts of hard places that for three years I was involved in helping so when I saw the word gutter I knew not to judge. I was actually in my stumbling way trying to acknowledge my cynicism, agreeing with your previous comment and yet defending, not that I care to defend, my point about poverty is not conducive to self expression.
I do care if I have annoyed you or brought up stuff, for which I apologise, because what you have said here in this thread has my respect.

[RichardH]

You were responding to my post in which I shared about entering art from a homeless condition. You went on to generalized about faux artist poverty.
The characterization is so sweeping, so general . ... How on earth can I reduce artists, or any grouping of people to such a caricature? I cannot.


This discussion is interesting but Art isn't mine to defend and people will do what they do regardless. What catches my attention is cynicism.
When there time it would be good to have a discussion about that.

Gassho
Daizan

Sat today

Daizan
I have no idea what you are talking about I didn't refer to your poverty at all???? I didn't assume anything please explain???

[Stev]

Daizan
I have no idea what you are talking about I didn't refer to your poverty at all???? I didn't assume anything please explain???

[RichardH]

You are correct I am cynical about everything including art. Though I do not believe, or maybe ,I do not want to believe I am being superficial. I just believe real poverty, and I don't mean the freedom, the fun poverty of a young artist sofa surfing, is to art what your mum sitting watching you and your girlfriend is to sex. It is not a rant against a class or a protest against the rich. I just believe, and so did Maslow, that certain things need to be in place in our lives before we can express our creativity.




sat today

The poverty I spoke of destroyed my family, killed my father ( he died panhandling) , and left me a choice between prostitution and drug dealing to survive. So do not be to quick with assumptions.

As for cynicism , I believe it is best to let Manjushri kill it on the spot. It is of no benefit . But I'm just a student here so that is that .


Don't make assumptions about who you are talking to... Who they are and how that have lived..

Just don't...

I'm done here


Gassho
Daizan
Sat today

[Stev]

Meishin, I am just trying to defend art as the product of joy, inspiration and creativity, and not the product of suffering, I am just trying to point out suffering, and poverty being suffering is an art killer. Please explain which 'side' I am in your foreign country's argument about school curriculum. And by the way we have a poor peasant existence here in Spain ourselves and yet all our needs are met. Poverty in Spain in a village where everyone knows everyone is not the poverty of hunger, people take care of each other here.

Byrne . I have to confess something to you. When I read what I have described here as pretentious I was kind of not telling the truth, I was in fact f*****g enraged!!! A couple of days ago was the anniversary of the allies getting to Belsen, Just by luck I saw this just before reading this poet's romanticising of suffering and it enraged me, so here is a challenge, please show me the art of the suffering of Belsen I am sure it exists online. Why ask me where are the artless societies??? Show me the societies without the rich ruling the poor, Show me the societies that are really free. show me the societies where there is no hunger, show me the societies where everyone has a home. Show me the societies where they do not realise how well off they are. Show me the societies without censorship.

Kokuu,
Ok I don't think one can equate poverty with a tribal system that has worked for centuries. Yes they may not have ipads and tvs but they have a sustainable life that gives them what they need, And that is what I am saying , when your needs are met then you can create, dance, smile. When those needs are not met, it is not impossible to 'do' art it is just far more difficult and less likely. If one has no self esteem how do you express your creativity in art without the confidence of your self?

As for the homeless I used to be part of a group squatting council buildings in Oxford to house the homeless, we homed up to 40 people at any one time. This was my choice, I enjoyed the lifestyle, in fact it ended up with my going to uni to study law as we were in the courts so much. I never saw one person do any art in the three years we were active, not one. They were always more occupied with getting their clothes clean, getting sleep, recovering, then going back out into the world from the base we provided to find jobs. With a roof over their heads they could keep their jobs and earn enough to go out and rent their own places. Now I am sure once in their own pads with their lives on track they began to express their creativity but I never saw it when they were homeless. We were called Equality.

sat today

[Meishin]

This is a very interesting thread. It fits so well with battles that are being waged in state legislatures (in the USA) over the curriculum/priorities for public schools. Similar arguments. Those who would relegate art classes to the dust bin appear to be winning. It's a very old discussion. IMO neither "side" will be convinced by the other. Just to say, one of my best friends is a wonderful and talented painter in Spain who is dirt poor. However he does have adequate oxygen.

Gassho
Meishin
Sat today

[Byrne]

Stev,

i hear what you're saying about class, poverty, and pretentiousness. However, look at the creative output of the victims of slavery or the holocaust. And where exactly are the artless societies?

gassho

sat today

[Kokuu]

I just believe, and so did Maslow, that certain things need to be in place in our lives before we can express our creativity

Have you ever read the poetry pages in The Big Issue, Stev? I get the feeling that the homeless people who write there don't have everything they need but seem to find great solace in expressing how life is for them.

Being able to express feelings through art seems to be a very human need. Probably not higher than food, housing or oxygen but that will not exclude the majority of human beings either now or during the course of our history. Many indigenous tribes live a hunter-gatherer life much like our stone age ancestors yet tribal art, songs, dance and textiles are pretty much universal. The level of affluence necessary really isn't very high. Art may not be a priority for the very very poor but that really doesn't make it only available to the rich. The fact you can make art using just a stick and knife, your voice or a pile of rocks means it is something that is available to most people in the world in some shape or form.

To be honest, some modern art (Tracey Emin's bed, Damien Hirst's formaldehyde shark) makes me cynical too. It does seem like some rich kids playing with things for attention. That is just my projection onto the situation though. If I like the art I am probably going to be more generous and the fact it isn't important to me doesn't mean it doesn't have meaning for others.

Gassho
Kokuu
#sattodayp

p.s. for non-UK folk, The Big Issue is a magazine written by homeless people and sold by them for a small profit.

[Rich]

Everyone is involved in art, because life is an art. "long term discipline and skill development" for enjoyment in my case has been applied to athletics. Art in motion.

Sat today