Faith in Zazen...

[Stacy]

In truth, I'm not sure I see a faith in sitting? Not really for me, at least.

What led me to Buddhism was when I realized how a particular person or two in my life were really getting to me. I was stuck in questioning everything I did, how they would perceive it, what underlying intentions were in the things they said and did, what might they do tomorrow, how other people would perceive our interactions, on and on. I could feel the churning and turning inside me. I could feel the strain.

The Four Noble Truths and all that helped, being soothing in their own way, but then I found Treeleaf and started to sit.

It is a break from everything, the questions and the thinking. (Or maybe more accurately, a break from fighting everything.) It is a chance to just let things be, to just be, and not have to worry about anything. Sure, my head keeps going at it, especially on a crazy day, but it gets a chance to "spin out". Let it all go. Not hold onto it, not shove it away, not poke at it, but let it be and let it go. How wonderful!

And I get better at carrying that sitting with me, beyond the zafu.

I gave a new food a try and liked it, I'd say. Whatever happens, however I am doing it, I feel better doing it. In that, I don't think there was really anything to have faith in?

Perhaps I question the teachings a bit as I come across them, but sitting itself? Not really.

Maybe my sharing will be helpful. If not, you know what, I'm not gonna question it. Sometimes it's just good to share.


Gassho,
Stacy

#SatToday

[Jundo]

What is a good analogy to explain this? Well, suppose you were looking at or climbing a mountain, and you said to your self "this mountain, and this experience, is whole and complete ... there is nothing to add or take away from this ... there is nothing more I need to do now, no other place I should be now, but this ... this is total fulfillment" ... then your simply having such attitude lets you realize the moment as so. A wonderful experience.

But on the other hand, if you say to your self "I need a better mountain, there are more impressive mountains, I did not climb fast enough, the day is not as I dreamed, I still feel that something is missing in my heart, I yearn and hunger for something else, some other mountain" ... then it is so, and you make it so by your attitude.

...

The mountain itself sits in its place ... and all the rest is what one pours upon it in judgement of the human mind. Truly, in Shikantaza we come to recognize each mountain and each grain of sand and each day and each moment and each action ... and each sentient being, and you and your life too ... and each tooth and every toothache too ... as occupying its own sacred place, a kind of Jewel shining in Indra's Net.

By the way, let me express the real Trick ... what we call the "Mountains Are Mountains Again" Trick ... which is learning to lead life simultaneously from both viewless views as one at once, interpenetrating and interfusing. This is our Zen Practice. How?

Well, then, there is a mountain to climb, but no place to go. Thus sitting and going, we are always going while simultaneously perfectly at rest! There is trash to pick up along the trail of our lives, but nothing to change. There are right ways and wrong ways, going in circle ways and ways which lead right off a cliff, into the mud or into the poison ivy ... yet each step is the trip, and there is ultimately no wrong way or place to fall. One move forward step by step ... yet each step, right here, is a total arrival. Ups and downs, rain and sunshine ... and we put on our rain gear when we can, and follow the good trail when we can ... but all is ultimately just what it is. We take care not to break our bones or break our hearts ... but such sometimes happens in life nonetheless, yet ultimately nothing which can ever be broken in a Buddha Heart.

Got how that works? All True As One At Once! Climbing Buddha mountain, yet each step is just the mountain from beginningless beginning to endless end of the trail.

It is a sane and healthful way to get on with life too. Trust me on that!

The famous saying of 9th Century Master Ch'ing-yüan Wei-hsin (Seigen Ishin):
老僧三十年前未參禪時、見山是山、見水是水、及至後夾親見知識、有箇入處、見山不是山、見水不是水、而今得 箇體歇處、依然見山秪是山、見水秪是水

"Before someone studies Zen, to that someone mountains are mountains and waters are waters; after someone gets an insight into the truth of Zen through the instruction of a good master, mountains to that someone are not mountains and waters are not waters; but after this when the someone really attains to the abode of rest, mountains are once more mountains and waters are waters."

Another old saying on Suchness (and the inspiration for the name of Taigu's community) ...

青山自青山、白雲自白雲
"The blue mountains are of themselves blue mountains;
"The white clouds are of themselves white clouds."

Gassho, J

SatToday on the Mountain

PS - This is also the way that Zen Monks can strive to attain flawless perfection in ritual, all while dropping all idea of perfection and flaw and striving and attaining, all amid a certain Buddha Perfection which sweeps in all small human ideas of perfect or flawed ... all as seen on this other perfectly-imperfect thread ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?13356-Steve-Jobs-and-Buddhism&p=152113&viewfull=1#post152113

and

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?13356-Steve-Jobs-and-Buddhism&p=152154&viewfull=1#post152154

[dharmasponge]

Thanks everyone again for such comprehensive and thoughtful answers.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mp]

Thank you Jundo for that perspective on "Faith/Trust". For me I do have "trust" in Shikantaza, as I have trust in knowing that if I sit the beauty and benefit of that practice will/does shine throughout my life ... and hopefully the lives of the people I meet. =)

Gassho
Shingen

SatToday

[Hotetsu]

Here here to that, Shingen. Faith in practice, practice in faith.

Gassho,
Hotetsu

#SatToday

[Byrne]

When I first became interested in Buddhism I had many doubts and concerns about the practice even though many of the core teachings resonates strongly with me. I kept them in my heart, with limited understanding and they were what they were.

After some troubling events in my life I decided to give practice another try and one could say that it was an act of faith. Thus far, Treeleaf has been washing away my initial doubts and misunderstandings. I'm still pretty new to this, but so far so good. My "faith" in Buddhism and Zazen has increased based on my experience with daily sitting and slowly understanding the teachings. What resonated before is still resonating. What I've learned thus far has settled many of my concerns.

Let's see what happens.

Gassho

Sat Today

[Stev]

my opinion , which I do not hold is that if one comes to Buddhism, Zen, sitting, with some intellectual understanding then faith is required possibly more than if one intuitively enters the path with very little information. Me personally it just looked a cool thing to do, to sit, Buddhism itself appeared dreary and depressing, complicated, totally unbelievable and all about suffering but Zen and meditation had style. and wow, all you have to do is sit!!
Lol, so as shallow as that may sound the first time I read how pointless it would be to have the goal of enlightenment when sitting I couldn't believe anyone in their right mind would think that they could be enlightened, so in my stumbling intuitive approach I started to realise maybe I am getting some of this stuff right.
I remember when I joined here telling Jundo (bows in respect) how my practice was very simple, just sit and let go, for which one just needs a cushion, not faith.

Gassho

Sat this morning

[alan.r]

Lovely discussion. Trust each step, even the ones that trip us up. Don't have anything else to add except to say thanks.

Gassho,
Alan
sattoday

[Risho]

But there is another "trust in Shikantaza" that is ABSOLUTELY VITAL! I describe such as follows: Strange as it may sound at first blush, if one sits with a radical trust that the mere act of sitting Zazen is a complete action ... it is! But on the contrary, if one sits with the feeling "something is missing" ... then it is! So, a thorough trust in the former is vital!

YES!!! thank you Jundo

Gassho

Risho
-sattoday

[Meredith]

The idea is that faith is a kind of preliminary idea that will, in time, be replaced by knowledge through direct experience--not a "blind" faith or adherence to orthodoxy or something you rely on throughout your entire life. Your very practice is an act of faith--that act of dropping off efforts and trusting our own Buddha nature.ST

This reflects my experience with zazen--I first came to it with a mixture of curiosity and faith in the experiences of others. Now I have direct experience as a reinforcement of that initial faith.

Hope that makes sense?

Gassho,

Meredith

SatToday

[Tai Shi]

Hi, most days I sit with pain--my doctors tell me I have chronic pain. The bones in my neck are destroyed from a disease process, and in some cases like mine, operations might be possible. Not so with me. the damage is too near the brain, or it isn't in the right place, or even it would do no good. When I am still, when I am quiet, sitting, just sitting Shikantaza, I do not experience level 10 pain, or any level. In my lower back the scar tissue has fused the joints. I find it difficult to bend over.

I am quiet when I practice Shikantaza--quiet an still wakeful. Is this faith? Certainly it is perseverance, and this follows me when all else fails. I surrender to the quiet, to the time, to my breath, to my body, to my day, for in not thinking I find peace.

Elgwyn
sat today
Gassho _/\_

[Ed]

Suzuki roshi speaks of faith in Something which has no form, but is always ready to take on any form, has no taste or color but is always ready to take any taste or color, no quality but ready to take on any quality. He spoke of God but no the dualistic God but yes an ultimate reality of which we all are part. He mentions that at the moment of birth we are separated from this Reality without losing our nature but taking on feelings an a samsaric existence. Life is always painful until we develop understanding of ourselves and others, and of our situation between the universal Mind and our samsaric being.
He was bin on sitting zazen with a ready mind and faith on our posture which he mentions often pre dates Shakiamuni by a long, long time.Like
Dogen zenji, Shunryo-san gets an A+ in Buddhist faith.
I keep listening to readings of his Zen Mind Beginner's Mind book over and over and always find something new that I missed before.

[Jishin]

Suzuki roshi speaks of faith in Something which has no form, but is always ready to take on any form, has no taste or color but is always ready to take any taste or color, no quality but ready to take on any quality. He spoke of God but no the dualistic God but yes an ultimate reality of which we all are part. He mentions that at the moment of birth we are separated from this Reality without losing our nature but taking on feelings an a samsaric existence. Life is always painful until we develop understanding of ourselves and others, and of our situation between the universal Mind and our samsaric being.
He was bin on sitting zazen with a ready mind and faith on our posture which he mentions often pre dates Shakiamuni by a long, long time.Like
Dogen zenji, Shunryo-san gets an A+ in Buddhist faith.
I keep listening to readings of his Zen Mind Beginner's Mind book over and over and always find something new that I missed before.

Suzuki and Dogen have beautiful words. But they are dead and not my own.

Gassho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Ed]

Yes, agreed.