Two "basic" questions about zazen

[Ugrok]

Hello !

Question 1 : lately i seem to give myself orders during the whole zazen : "stop thinking !" "stop doing this !" "stop focusing on that !" "stop wanting to stop !". I try to let it happen and not make a big deal of it but it's so frustrating (Jundo's hammer video comes to my mind, ahahah) ! Any ideas about what i could do do be a little less vindicative towards my "self" ? Should i even try ?

Question 2 : it's related to a few threads we had those days. I wonder what is the "good" attitude towards tension and stress you feel in the body. Sometimes during zazen i fell that there are parts (often the neck, or the shoulders) that are very tense. I also noticed that by gently focusing on those parts, and breathing with them, i can relax them. Should i do that, or not ? I mean, i relax them, then they go tense again when i release my attention, so what's the point ? Wouldn't it be better to just let it be and drop it all ?

Thanks !

Gassho,

Ugrok, sat today

[Kokuu]

Hi Ugrok

One perspective is that everything that happens on the cushion is shikantaza. The tension, the frustration at being swept up in thoughts, that is all part of the sit. It all arises and all falls away. A constant flow of happenings.

However, I know how it feels to sit with tension/pain and it can make it difficult to focus on anything else. Rather than working on relaxing yourself in the sit itself, have you thought of maybe doing some gentle stretching beforehand? Also maybe include some muscle relaxation practice in addition to shikantaza?

As far as being harsh with yourself, this tends to happen to me when I have expectations of how shikantaza should be and that I am not fulfilling them. I do find myself following thoughts but this happens and is okay. Nothing to berate yourself for. I imagine that even very experienced sitters experience this (and probably still occasionally get frustrated too!). The mind is a curious creature and will follow thoughts. No need to be cross at it any more than we would an excited puppy!

I wonder also if your questions are related? When I am tense, I find myself being much less gentle with both myself and others.

Gassho
Kokuu
#sattoday

[Jishin]

Two "basic" questions about zazen

Hi Ugrok,

I have trouble with back pain so I focus on posture. Thoughts come and go but there ain't no dropping away this part of body-mind, I don't care what Buddha, Dogen or anyone else says about it. Ultimately I am the boss since I live in this lump of red meat. If you find the Buddha, have him for lunch!



PS:

Gassho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Risho]

Thank you Kokuu and Jishin.

My 2 cents from a beginner:

The only thing I would add is that even if you beat yourself up or get frustrated, that's ok. That's part of it. If it were easy it wouldn't be worthwhile and it wouldn't require practice. It takes time. Just be patient. We've been addicted to our inner mind for years, so those are deeply ingrained habits. It's natural to notice these more and more. We are also used to taking a direct path to get some goal, like "Oh NO I'm thinking; stop that." But there is no goal, just sit. Very difficult.

Don't use Shikantaza. Don't use Shikantaza to relax. Don't use Shikantaza to escape. Just fully sit without any goal. The only thing to do is to sit; that's it. If you notice your posture is slipping, e.g. I tend to lean forward for some reason, just adjust and keep sitting. Just be there. Don't grab on to thoughts, don't chase them away. Just sit.

Gassho,

Risho
-sattoday

[Jundo]

Hi Ugrok,

Some good advice here.

Hello !

Question 1 : lately i seem to give myself orders during the whole zazen : "stop thinking !" "stop doing this !" "stop focusing on that !" "stop wanting to stop !". I try to let it happen and not make a big deal of it but it's so frustrating (Jundo's hammer video comes to my mind, ahahah) ! Any ideas about what i could do do be a little less vindicative towards my "self" ? Should i even try ?

Just stop. Relax. I know that sounds strange, but it is true: It is not a matter of forcing anything, but of completely surrendering! I often show this picture of Chinese finger cuffs ...



The way to escape is not to pull or push harder and harder, but just to stop and relax. Then the cuffs slip right off.

Another example is trying to "quiet" a bowl of turbulent water by taking your hand and trying to hit or smooth the surface. That just makes even more ripples and turbulence!



Instead, the way to allow the water to settle is not to "do" anything to the water, or to take any action. It is merely to stop, rest, and let the water settle and clear on its own.

If you really really cannot get your mind to settle, and it remains stormy to the point of true distraction and discomfort, try following or counting your breaths for a time until the mind settles and clears.

Beyond that, Jishin, Risho and Ugrok offer excellent advice ...

One perspective is that everything that happens on the cushion is shikantaza. The tension, the frustration at being swept up in thoughts, that is all part of the sit. It all arises and all falls away. A constant flow of happenings.

Do not resist all the ripples and swirls of the mind, neither grab on and stir up. Relax, allow, let be.

Don't use Shikantaza. Don't use Shikantaza to relax. Don't use Shikantaza to escape. Just fully sit without any goal. The only thing to do is to sit; that's it. If you notice your posture is slipping, e.g. I tend to lean forward for some reason, just adjust and keep sitting. Just be there. Don't grab on to thoughts, don't chase them away. Just sit.

As Jishin says, you are finding out for yourself on the cushion.

Question 2 : it's related to a few threads we had those days. I wonder what is the "good" attitude towards tension and stress you feel in the body. Sometimes during zazen i fell that there are parts (often the neck, or the shoulders) that are very tense. I also noticed that by gently focusing on those parts, and breathing with them, i can relax them. Should i do that, or not ? I mean, i relax them, then they go tense again when i release my attention, so what's the point ? Wouldn't it be better to just let it be and drop it all ?

If I am very tense in a part of the body like the back or shoulders, I may just "let the tension go" there, and feel the muscles relax. Also, Kokuu's advice on some stretching or yoga beforehand sounds good (when I have sat with groups in China and Vietnam, they had a very nice few minutes of sitters stretching and rubbing face, arm and leg muscles before the sit began. I have not seen so much of that in Japan)

But after that, just sit with what is. Again, the best way to "relax" is not to "try to relax", but just to let go and let be and ... relax.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Ugrok]

Thank you very much for your answers !

Gassho,

Ugrok, sat today

[Kyonin]

Hi Ugrok,

Just be kind to yourself. Giving orders won't work because you are forcing yourself to do things. Remember our way is just to let things go. If you find it's hard to focus on some days, that's fine. You can't always live in focus. You're not the Hubble... and even the Hubble needs to be out of service in order to get maintenance!

And about tense muscles, yes acknowledging them while sitting, helps. What I do is to take a couple of yoga stretches. They are wonderful.

Gassho,

Kyonin
#SatToday

[Ugrok]

Funny, cause i started practicing yoga two weeks ago ; indeed, it is really great (and also very interesting - and not without links with zazen).

I know i should be kind to myself, ahah ! But sometimes i just can't help it, i don't choose to give myself orders, it's just what comes during the sitting ; of course if i could choose to "be kind with myself" i would do it instantly and there would be no problem, but it seems that it does not work like that. What (non-)worked in latest sittings is just not paying attention to anything and let the orders order and the frustration frustrate.

Thanks for the advices !


Gassho,

Ugrok, sat today

[Jundo]

What (non-)worked in latest sittings is just not paying attention to anything and let the orders order and the frustration frustrate.

Yes, maybe after awhile that the dog is frustrated at not catching its tail it will just rest.



Or perhaps the better analogy is someone very frustrated that he cannot stop the sun coming up each morning, shouting "Stop Sun Stop", filled with commands and frustrations that the sun is shining. Like Grandpa Simpson here ...



Perhaps after a time he will just let the sun shine, clarity and light.

Gassho, J

[Lowell]

Question 1 : lately i seem to give myself orders during the whole zazen : "stop thinking !" "stop doing this !" "stop focusing on that !" "stop wanting to stop !". I try to let it happen and not make a big deal of it but it's so frustrating (Jundo's hammer video comes to my mind, ahahah) ! Any ideas about what i could do do be a little less vindicative towards my "self" ? Should i even try ?

In regard to the above, trying to not think of white elephants is generally going to cause one to think of them. The zazen approach of just letting them arise and fall, drift in and drift out, float through the sky, seems to be a very solid approach.

Gassho,

Lowell

SatToday

[Ishin]

Love the hand in the bowl of water illustration.
Thanks for this thread all.

Gassho
Ishin
Sat Today

[Ed]

Hello !

Question 1 : lately i seem to give myself orders during the whole zazen : "stop thinking !" "stop doing this !" "stop focusing on that !" "stop wanting to stop !". I try to let it happen and not make a big deal of it but it's so frustrating (Jundo's hammer video comes to my mind, ahahah) ! Any ideas about what i could do do be a little less vindicative towards my "self" ? Should i even try ?

Question 2 : it's related to a few threads we had those days. I wonder what is the "good" attitude towards tension and stress you feel in the body. Sometimes during zazen i fell that there are parts (often the neck, or the shoulders) that are very tense. I also noticed that by gently focusing on those parts, and breathing with them, i can relax them. Should i do that, or not ? I mean, i relax them, then they go tense again when i release my attention, so what's the point ? Wouldn't it be better to just let it be and drop it all ?

Thanks !

Gassho,

Ugrok, sat today

1. Who is doing the ordering? Deal from there, go to breath, check posture.
Make space between the ordering mind and the ordered. Who is who? / not two.
Breath. Relax. Check body posture.
You are there. That is Nirvana whether you know it or not. That is our practice.
Little every day in constant search of Self through self. All the same.

2. Zazen is abiding in the 'ground of being before mind split reality into this and that.' (Uchiyama roshi)
'Good' in zazen is abiding into our daily life samsaric splitting of reality.
But do make sure you are not too uncomfortable. Some discipline is necessary, and consistency.

Thanks for practicing.
Sat2day,
Seido

[Jakugan]

I find that being frustrated with my zazen is a self fulfilling prophecy. Being annoyed at not being able to control my mind is just setting myself up to fail at the the same thing. Doesn't stop this from happening to me on some days though.

gassho,

simon.

sat today.