Two streams of thought?

[Kyonin]

Thank you, Jundo.

Gassho,

Kyonin
#SatToday

[alan.r]

Now, some might think that the purpose of meditation is to grab an eraser and strip away all the "lies and delusions" of these drawings and stories that are on the paper, because when we do that and all that remains is the "empty paper" that is Truth! We obtain some "Cosmic Consciousness", "the Watcher" or the like. Well, Dogen's way is more about knowing that the shining, pristine, whole Truth of the paper is fully present both on the blank page and in all the drawing and stories that we write there. It is present in stories and pictures of beauty and ugliness, love and hate, war and peace. (But, although that is so, and "Buddha" shines through each ... please try to draw pictures and make a story of beauty, love and peace as you can. In fact, making a picture of ugliness and hate will hide the Wholeness and Goodness from our eyes).

Really beautiful. Thank you for this, Jundo.

Gassho,
Alan
sattoday

[MikeTango]

Thank you so much Jundo for such a brilliant description of our goal in this practice (if there is any). I don´t know if is an indication that something is changing in me with the time and the practice, but I understand more your brief explanation about Zen purpose in this thread and in

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?10437-Trying-to-explain-Zen-Buddhism-to-my-wife

that many other books that I read in the past.
Gassho
#Sat Today
Miguel

The brain-mind is amazing! Thank you for relating your story, Byrne.

The reasons we do not emphasize the "Watcher" in this little corner of Zen Buddhism are like this:

First, the emphasis here is not on any unusual, strange, extraordinary experiences during Zazen. Better said, the emphasis is on realizing just how miraculous, wondrous, extraordinary is this most "ordinary" world when we open our eyes to such fact. It is rather like the story that Okumura Roshi tells of "dogberries" in an essay on another thread, a most ordinary and unwanted kind of weed until he also sees each simultaneously as a shining jewel (simultaneously weed and shining jewel), its own place in the sun. One might even say that each common "dogberry" of life holds all the universe. Still, it is just a bitter dogberry.

By the way, strange, unusual, extraordinary states will arise in Zazen too. That is fine, and neither do we push them away. We learn from them, experience and move on. I have written about this a little more regarding the Shikantaza view of "Kensho" ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?12641-Faces-in-the-carpet&p=134787&viewfull=1#post134787

I have told other folks with profound visual experiences to just grab the popcorn and enjoy the show. However, that same thread also discusses some tricks and experiences of the mind common during Zazen ... such as optical illusions, sudden paranoia, old memories surfacing. We observe those, and move on.

Next, the reason we do not emphasize a "watcher" is something like saying that the emphasis in Zen is not on attaining some "Cosmic Consciousness" that is "Truth" hidden from this ordinary world of delusion which we must strip completely away to reach. I would say what Zennies are pursuing is much more subtle. In Zen, we also believe that there is a Truth and Wholeness which exists when the mind is free of judgments, frictions, divisions and the "subject-object" split. We seek to know that such exists too. However, we encounter that such exists both when the "judgments, frictions, divisions and the "subject-object" split" fully drop from mind (see Kensho discussion above), BUT ALSO right in and as this world of "judgments, frictions, divisions and the "subject-object" split". In other words, we find it right in and as the dogberries.

How to explain?

On another thread, I gave the example of blank, white, boundless, pristine paper. Maybe we could say that all the divisions, beauty and ugliness, love and hate, birth and death, war and peace of this world is like drawings, scribbles and stories that we make and write on the paper.

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?13147-Our-way&p=147316&viewfull=1#post147316

Now, some might think that the purpose of meditation is to grab an eraser and strip away all the "lies and delusions" of these drawings and stories that are on the paper, because when we do that and all that remains is the "empty paper" that is Truth! We obtain some "Cosmic Consciousness", "the Watcher" or the like. Well, Dogen's way is more about knowing that the shining, pristine, whole Truth of the paper is fully present both on the blank page and in all the drawing and stories that we write there. It is present in stories and pictures of beauty and ugliness, love and hate, war and peace. (But, although that is so, and "Buddha" shines through each ... please try to draw pictures and make a story of beauty, love and peace as you can. In fact, making a picture of ugliness and hate will hide the Wholeness and Goodness from our eyes).

Sometimes we talk of "mirror mind". The mirror reflects all appearing in the mirror without judgement, rejecting none of it, beautiful or ugly. If one is merely experiencing some "Watcher" seeing the "things in the mirror", it seems like a great division. In fact, the mirror and all that appears in the mirror glass are one. Mirror and beauty and ugliness, love and hate, birth and death, war and peace, dogberries and blueberries are one. Nevertheless, as we can, we pick the blueberries of life, avoid the war and other dogberries.

I don't know if I did a very good job of explaining this without clouding things, but something like that.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[michaeljc]

When I sit zazen, I noticed something that I wasn't quite sure if it was normal or not. I find it really easy to separate my thoughts. Like, my usual chatter is separated from my relaxed self. As if I literally step out of my own head for zazen, and sit in this calm place where I just watch my thoughts flow. Does anybody else experience this?

Gassho,
Taylor

#willsitinlessthen30minutes

Trust yourself

Sat 2-day

[Theophan]

Jundo
Thanks. I appreciate your lesson.

Gassho
Theophan
Sat Today

[Yugen]

Two streams of thought?

The more I try to describe Shikantaza the further I separate myself from it. This is a dilemma I face as a novice priest. When I try to talk about it I find I can't describe it. I just sit with folks. It's different for each of us as our experiences are different. The phrase "just sit" seems so trite and then one day it makes sense and seems to encapsulate the universe. A raindrop falling to earth is Zazen. A snowflake drifting to earth with other snowflakes is zazen, a mountain is Zazen. We are zazen. The unity of all things while at the same time abiding in temporal form.

Deep bows
Yugen

#s2d


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jundo]

The more I try to describe Shikantaza the further I separate myself from it. This is a dilemma I face as a novice priest. When I try to talk about it I find I can't describe it. I just sit with folks. It's different for each of us as our experiences are different. The phrase "just sit" seems so trite and then one day it makes sense and seems to encapsulate the universe. A raindrop falling to earth is Zazen. A snowflake drifting to earth with other snowflakes is zazen, a mountain is Zazen. We are zazen. The unity of all things while at the same time abiding in temporal form.

Deep bows
Yugen

#s2d

I might take a Middle Way here.

Shikantaza is like sailing, and guiding students like teaching how to sail. One must describe, offer pointers, explain how to read a compass and chart. One must show the right and wrong ways to tie a knot, and where the dangerous rocks are found.

But after that, the sailor must get out there and do her own sailing. This cannot be learned from books, and the helpful teaching only goes so far. The real "learning the ropes" comes from the actual voyage.

I might also describe Shikantaza as like formless clay without some guidance as to the direction to take it. Saying that "it is different for each of us as our experiences are different" is only partly right. There is also some universal aspect common to all of us, and right and wrong ways to go about it. If one does not explain those, the sailors will be prone to go in circles or hit a reef, the clay may never take good form.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Yugen]

Jundo,
Very appropriate and I'm grateful for the teaching.

Deep bows
Yugen


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mp]

I might take a Middle Way here.

Shikantaza is like sailing, and guiding students like teaching how to sail. One must describe, offer pointers, explain how to read a compass and chart. One must show the right and wrong ways to tie a knot, and where the dangerous rocks are found.

But after that, the sailor must get out there and do her own sailing. This cannot be learned from books, and the helpful teaching only goes so far. The real "learning the ropes" comes from the actual voyage.

I might also describe Shikantaza as like formless clay without some guidance as to the direction to take it. Saying that "it is different for each of us as our experiences are different" is only partly right. There is also some universal aspect common to all of us, and right and wrong ways to go about it. If one does not explain those, the sailors will be prone to go in circles or hit a reef, the clay may never take good form.

Gassho, J

SatToday

This is a wonderful and clear explanation Jundo, thank you for this. =)

Gassho
Shingen

SatToday