For Zen History Wonks Only: Paper on Origins of Early Chan (Zen) in Chinese Daoism

[Risho]

Thank you.. .very interesting.

Gassho,

Risho
-sattoday

[Daitetsu]

Hi Troy,

Thank you for the heads up on the translations. The one I got was translated in 1919 by Dwight Goddard. It has fallen out of copyright so it is in the public domain for free. I don't if it is a good one?

I haven't read that one to be honest. The Tao Te Ching is - besides the Bible - one of the most translated books there are. I think there are really about 100+ translations/interpretations out there.
The differences between them are bigger than one might imagine.

BTW: I have just found out that the translation by Tim Freke is available as an ebook now (a bit less than 7 bucks): clicky!
There is also a translation by Red Pine (who translated the Heart Sutra and others as well) which is supposed to be good and which I am going to read soon: clicky!
And here a link to the printed Mitchell translation: clicky!

At some point, I would like to find a book with some commentary too.

I would wait with that! For me part of the beauty was to discover the text for myself, to delve into it myself. It is possible you read a passage on one day and get something different out of it a month later.
This is something to read again and again.
If you want recommendations on commentaries, just send me a PM.

There is a nice video introduction series about Taoism by Donna Quesada on YouTube. Here is part 1:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xo8oZb6fanY

(She has other videos on her channel that are not my cuppa tea, but the Tao stuff is good.)

Nuff said, have fun!

Gassho,

Daitetsu

#sat2day

[Shoka]

Thank you for the readings Jundo.

I found the commentary on "The Making of Modern Buddhism" very interesting and will look into the book. One comment by the author really stood out,

That’s not surprising: much of it is our own culture, repackaged and passed back to us.

Familiar ideas about individual access to ultimate truth (a core theme of Protestantism), social justice, and emotional health are dressed up with Sanskrit, Pali, or Tibetan words, and supported with highly selective quotations from Buddhist scripture. That makes them intriguingly exotic, yet comfortably unthreatening.

For myself this is one of the unfortunate outcomes of mixing religions and ideologies. I don't like the idea that things have been "dressed up" in something we Western's find to be "exotic" so that they can be resold to us. He also states,

"When these ideologies are disguised as “timeless Eastern wisdom,” we may accept them uncritically."

I recently had Gesshin Greenwood's blog suggested to me as a good source of reading from the perspective of a western practicing in Japan. (You might remember her from this post a couple months back.) While not academic, I really enjoyed her blog "What We Talk About When We Talk About Ducks." In it she discusses some of the same topics brought up in Modern Buddhism, including the idea of repacking Buddhism to fit a western perspective; specifically that Buddhism is typically presented as not a religion and instead meditation is something scientific. I found it to be a thought provoking commentary on how Buddhism is presented in different parts of the world.

Gassho,

Shoka
Sat Today

PS: Gesshin mentions "appropriating meditation - taking it out of a Buddhist religious context -ignores and overlooks what Buddhism has been for thousands of years." If you have not heard the term cultural appropriation before, this article is a good overview of the topic.

[Jundo]

PS: Gesshin mentions "appropriating meditation - taking it out of a Buddhist religious context -ignores and overlooks what Buddhism has been for thousands of years." If you have not heard the term cultural appropriation before, this article is a good overview of the topic.

Yes, I believe that this is precisely what has happened. However, I also believe that many of the repackagings and adaptations may actually be strengthenings and improvements (!!) to the Traditions in some ways. Or, better said, they are adaptations for modern times and societies that may work very well there, well older traditions were right for other times and societies. I think many of the changes that happened to Buddhism as it became "Buddhism modernism" and Westernized are keepers! I believe that the greater equality of women, the greater ability of lay folks to access Teachings and actually Practice, and the bringing of modern education and science to traditions sometimes lost in superstition and ignorance are but three examples.

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday

[Kokuu]

I don't mind Buddhism being repackaged but would be very sad if the original sources of traditional material were lost.

In addition to the innovators making teachings relevant to the current age, I think it is very important that there are holders of traditional lineage. As well as suiting many people, it is also the wellspring from which new innovations will be made.

Many thanks to all of the priests and monks in many traditions keeping the flame alive.

Gassho
Kokuu
#sattoday

[Jundo]

I don't mind Buddhism being repackaged but would be very sad if the original sources of traditional material were lost.

In addition to the innovators making teachings relevant to the current age, I think it is very important that there are holders of traditional lineage. As well as suiting many people, it is also the wellspring from which new innovations will be made.

Many thanks to all of the priests and monks in many traditions keeping the flame alive.

Gassho
Kokuu
#sattoday

I agree too. The Traditionalists keep the Traditions alive and, moreover, some Pracitioners need more Traditional Paths. Others flourish in more modern Paths.

It is similar to Judaism, which has very Orthodox folks who try to live as was done 500 years ago, strictly maintaining hundreds of rules of behavior and many old Traditions. At the same time, there are all manner of reformers and modernizers, trying t make things relevant for current times. If you only had one or the other, the religion would be much poorer. We need all flavors, suited to different needs.

Gassho, J

[Sekishi]

Jundo,

I hope this is not too off-topic, but I was wondering if you could offer any insight into something I have often wondered about in our tradition: how and why did the eightfold path end up with so little emphasis in Zen, but so much emphasis in many other Mahayana and Theravada traditions? Do you see this is part of the syncretic nature of Zen / Chan / Tao, a re-emphasis in other traditions, or something else?

My own personal take on it is that much of (but not all of) the eightfold path is contained within Shikantaza, undertaking the precepts, and liturgy (which I will expand on a little elsewhere for those who are interested) - we follow the spirit of the law if not the letter. However, I would love to hear other's understanding of this difference (historical and otherwise).

Gassho,
Sekishi

[Jundo]

Hi Sekishi,

Why do you say it is not emphasized? I don't see that.

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?64-Buddha-Basics

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Sekishi]

Why do you say it is not emphasized? I don't see that.

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?64-Buddha-Basics

Hi Jundo,

I do not mean to imply that it is ignored, simply not emphasized as much as some other traditions. Seeing it specifically covered in detail here at Treeleaf (in the Buddha Basics section) was part of what "won me over" initially as I was coming from a more Theravada angle at the time. In any case, it was (and is) my view (ahem, there are those views again) that in many western Zen sanghas the noble eightfold path is rarely mentioned. Perhaps it is simply understood to be the substrate of the rest of practice.

Anyhow, when I have some time, maybe a) rewatch the Buddha Basics videos and b) work on some specific questions for the role of the eightfold path in the Soto tradition.

Gassho,
Sekishi
#sattoday

[Sekishi]

I do not mean to imply that it is ignored, simply not emphasized as much as some other traditions. Seeing it specifically covered in detail here at Treeleaf (in the Buddha Basics section) was part of what "won me over" initially as I was coming from a more Theravada angle at the time.

I would add, that I am not trying to somehow set up Soto or Mahayana against Theravada. There are certainly Theravada traditions put much of their focus on different aspects of the Eightfold path (for example very specific Jhana attainments). Over 2600 years there has been lots of time to shift focus and create different traditions. Although I have firmly chosen the Soto way, I have deep humility and respect for the diversity of traditions.

Gassho,
Sekishi
#sattoday

[Kokuu]

how and why did the eightfold path end up with so little emphasis in Zen, but so much emphasis in many other Mahayana and Theravada traditions?

Actually, it is not very emphasised in most Mahayana traditions I am aware of.

In Tibetan traditions the eightfold path is condensed into three aspects - ethics, concentration and insight. These are then emphasised over the 8FP.

I have always thought it is a good thing to be familiar with early Buddhist teachings as they are implicitly contained in all other traditions even if not explicitly, and find it somewhat surprising when some Mahayana students aren't aware of some quite basic cornerstones of dharma.

Gassho
Kokuu
#sattoday

[Jundo]

Hi Sekishi,

I would say that is not right. Everyone emphasizes the Eightfold Path, it is basic to the Four Noble Truths, which is the foundation of all Buddhism!

Perhaps what you are seeing is that, well, in Mahayana Buddhism, we have so many Teachings, Koans, Sutras, Stories, Precepts, More Teachings, that we cannot mention it every hour because we are talking about all that other stuff (or sitting and not talking about anything). But they are still there, and fundamental (in fact, they ARE the other Teachings!). Right Livelihood, Right Speech, Right Action etc etc ... I do not think a day goes by in which any Zen Teacher does not focus on these aspects of the Way in actual practice, if not by mentioning the specific name.

And, yes of course, approaches and ways of explanation are rather of a different flavor from South Asian Traditions.

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday

PS = I picked the name of a random Zen Teacher or two, googled Eightfold Path just to see what came up. Sure enough, they talk about it front and center ...

Okumura ...

https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=tRfrlTX0ojoC&pg=PA298&lpg=PA298&dq=katagiri+eightfold+path+right+mindfulness&source=bl&ots=XNLGIaM-OL&sig=al1dI5i4TzStFRF9zCkCK1bOELk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=NQfAVPbeFMGtmAXnmoCIBQ&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=eightfold%20path%20&f=false

Katagiri ...

https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=ePX9e0ECFawC&pg=PT34&lpg=PT34&dq=katagiri+eightfold+path+right+mindfulness&source=bl&ots=oRCkegiAN4&sig=Xz1xmmIh0HDlFjfNgQa6TekWWp0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=NQfAVPbeFMGtmAXnmoCIBQ&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=katagiri%20eightfold%20path%20right%20mindfulness&f=false

[Sekishi]

I would say that is not right. Everyone emphasizes the Eightfold Path, it is basic to the Four Noble Truths, which is the foundation of all Buddhism!

Perhaps what you are seeing is that, well, in Mahayana Buddhism, we have so many Teachings, Koans, Sutras, Stories, Precepts, More Teachings, that we cannot mention it every hour because we are talking about all that other stuff (or sitting and not talking about anything).

Hi Jundo,

This is pretty much in line with my original statement and understanding.

The eightfold path is contained "within Shikantaza, undertaking the precepts, and liturgy"

As you say, it may not be mentioned every hour or every day, but it is still the foundation of practice.

Thank you for the clarification.

Gassho,
Sekishi
#sattoday

[Troy]

Hi Troy,



I haven't read that one to be honest. The Tao Te Ching is - besides the Bible - one of the most translated books there are. I think there are really about 100+ translations/interpretations out there.
The differences between them are bigger than one might imagine.

BTW: I have just found out that the translation by Tim Freke is available as an ebook now (a bit less than 7 bucks): clicky!
There is also a translation by Red Pine (who translated the Heart Sutra and others as well) which is supposed to be good and which I am going to read soon: clicky!
And here a link to the printed Mitchell translation: clicky!



I would wait with that! For me part of the beauty was to discover the text for myself, to delve into it myself. It is possible you read a passage on one day and get something different out of it a month later.
This is something to read again and again.
If you want recommendations on commentaries, just send me a PM.

There is a nice video introduction series about Taoism by Donna Quesada on YouTube. Here is part 1:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xo8oZb6fanY

(She has other videos on her channel that are not my cuppa tea, but the Tao stuff is good.)

Nuff said, have fun!

Gassho,

Daitetsu

#sat2day

Hi Daitetsu,

Thank you for taking the time to put all the recommendations together! I will check out another translation after I read the one I have. Perhaps I will find a favorite or at the very least it will give me a frame of reference of how the Tao Te Ching can be interpreted in different ways. I started watching Donna Quesada's videos. That is helpful so I don't feel like I am reading the Tao Te Ching in a vacuum of knowledge about Taoism. I recommend them to others if they are curious. Ah, now to sit back and let it all soak in.


..sat2day•

[Jundo]

I would say that is not right. Everyone emphasizes the Eightfold Path, it is basic to the Four Noble Truths, which is the foundation of all Buddhism!

Perhaps what you are seeing is that, well, in Mahayana Buddhism, we have so many Teachings, Koans, Sutras, Stories, Precepts, More Teachings, that we cannot mention it every hour because we are talking about all that other stuff (or sitting and not talking about anything).

Pondering this a little more, I would actually say that almost nothing that we discuss, advise or do around this Sangha (or most any Zen Sangha) escapes being the Eightfold Path ... talking about Right View, Right Speech, Right Mindfulness etc. For example, we might have a thread about right thinking (and non-thinking), right books to read and study (and when to put them down), right ways to sit Zazen (beyond right and wrong), right goals (and no goals), gentle speech (and silence) and the like, but I do not specifically say "right now we are talking about No. 4 on the list".

However, if one looks at was is being said or undertaken, it will be clear even without looking too much between the lines.

Nothing escapes the Eightfold Path! (Which is also Eightfold Pathless, by the way)

Gassho, J