Thoughts and not thoughts…

[Jundo]

Hi Sam,

I have been reading Sekkei Harada's book these past few days, including the passages you site. I think you misunderstand him. Please remember that Zen Teachers have a tendency to speak out of both sides of their no sided mouth.

Sekkei emphasizes in other sections that nothing must be sought for and nothing can be attained ...

[T]here really is no need to attain a mind free of discriminating thoughts and intentions. ... you must not think that you will attain a liberated mind by means of practice and zazen. If you constantly think of becoming or attaining something, your thoughts become a great barrier.

Thoughts and feelings arise one after the other and never come to rest ... in your zen practice, it is necessary to give up any thought of trying to control the mind by not having it move or having it settle.

Zazen does not mean simply to calm the mind, nor is it a means to get rid of all kinds of anguish or random, delusive thoughts.

(I cannot locate page numbers, but you can search the phrases here: https://books.google.com/books?id=C_...attain&f=false )

What he is cautioning against is "thumb twiddling" sitting thinking "nothing to attain, so I might as well sit like a bump on a log and daydream". That is miles away from sitting in the Total Completion of "Nothing to Attain", in which all need to attain has been dropped to the marrow. Sam, you confuse "nothing to attain" with "Nothing to Attain", in which this Life-Self-World is sat as Full and Whole. Sekkei, like all good Soto Teachers, is all about the latter "Just Sitting".

Sekkei cautions against wallowing in thoughts. But he is not about running toward or away from thoughts. Sekkei advises us to see through thoughts AND not thoughts, and this is done by radically allowing and transcending both ideas of liberation or of delusion ...

... this is only labeling things, and no one is actually burdened with this thing called "delusion". And yet, we desperately want this medicine called zazen, we desperately want a method. ... That is why I advise, "when you feel distressed or uneasy, be totally one with that! Don't look elsewhere! Just be distressed or uneasy, be one with your delusion. Be one with your afflictions!"

I am afraid, Sam, that you may miss what Sekkei Harada is really cautioning about. One must make "great effort" radically dropping all "effort". In the section on Dogen's sitting in China as if to "grind his body to powder", Sekkei then writes ...

There is nothing to be gained by doing something special ... Because of his own great effort he was able to instruct us, and tell us, "You needn't experience the same hardships that I have. ... So the most important thing is to realize that everything is already the way it should be. It isn't good to look for something special.

So, Sam, you are a bit lost if your continue to confuse "Non-Seeking" with "simply not bothering to seek". "Goallessness" with not finding, "Just Sitting" with "just sitting around", etc.

Understand?

Gassho, Jundo

[shikantazen]

Sekkei cautions against wallowing in thoughts. But he is not about running toward or away from thoughts. Sekkei advises us see to through thoughts AND not thoughts, and this is done by radically allowing and transcending both ideas of liberation or of delusion ...

Jundo,

I think you misunderstood what I said. I am definitely not proposing sitting like a bump on a log. At the same time, I am not saying we run away from thoughts. I am just saying we need to have a clear intent to wake up from thought (along with or without an object) when we sit. Without having that, we may think we are sitting in wholeness but we are simply fooling ourselves. Without such an anchor and intention it is easy to fool ourselves that we are doing Zazen when we are in fact caught up in thoughts most of the time. I am not saying the goal is to eliminate all thought. Do we agree so far?


Now coming to the “Sitting in Wholeness” part. This is how I understand it. Despite having a method and intent, if we start judging our Zazen (basing on how it is going) or create a division (that it is Zazen only the time we are aware and all other caught-up time is non-Zazen and hence not good) then it is not whole anymore. Despite doing our best to stay with the method we need to keep away all judgments and thoughts like “that there is a me doing Zazen and this me needs something out of Zazen and hence the practice needs to go good”


My objection is with anyone who say Zazen has nothing to do with thoughts or that we don’t need to have an active clear intent of returning. Sitting in wholeness is definitely not purposefully being ignorant to the division between caught-up and aware.


Gassho,
Sam
Sat Today

[Jinyo]

yes, Lisa, it is another separation. It is always, when we start to put things in words, I think.
But the question from Tony about thoughts is the reason,
why metaphors are working better than analytical discussions.
On the other side (again a separation) we have a brain and the ability to do philosophical buildings. ( I love (phil) the truth (sophia) )
For me both are important: the experiencing (zazen) and the philosophical (reading sutras and Dogens writings).
They go together for me - and I know, that there is a separation. I think, they come together during zazen. When the frame of my beliefs allows me to experience wholeness and "dropping body and mind". For me there is always a frame, which I enhance through dialogs like this.
I hope, that my kind of using words is not arrogant. I just try - as you do - to explain my experiences.

I hope also, that it is an excuse, Willow. I learn a lot doing that.

Gassho, Ernst
sat today

Hello Ernst,

not arrogant at all - and I totally understand what you mean by a frame which is enhanced through dialogue. I also love philosophy

When I express discomfort over 'words' it is mainly a nudge at myself. It is not my intention to criticize others so apologies if that's how it comes across.



Willow

Sat today (but wasted valuable time that could have been spent sitting by 'overthinking')

[Ugrok]

Hello !

Very interesting discussion, makes me... think a lot.

My question to you, Sam, would be : how do you know, how do you judge, that you are out of thought ? Then, even if you manage to see that you are "out of thoughts", what tells you that this new state is not a delusion ? On what do you put your trust to judge that you are out of a state that is delusional ? What or who tells you that you are not completely fooling yourself when you are "not thinking" ?

It seems to me that at the core of zen practice/teachings, for example in the heart sutra - and in other great texts like Nagarjunas Treaty of the Middle Way-, is the idea that there is nothing you can discriminate, there is ultimately nothing you can, so to speak, "hang your hat on", so there is nothing you should cling to. It goes far beyond thought only. It goes beyond thoughts, but also perceptions, and the whole "subject / object" structure of our experience. The freeing comes from realizing this through practice. I don't think you can realize this by making a state "more wanted" than another. If you "wake up from thoughts", then what do you have ? Let's call it a bunch of experience stuff. In fact, it's quite easy to stop thinking, for a few seconds even someone who does not practice can do it. You are then left with a simpler, clearer "experience stuff". Is this stuff to be clinged to ? Nope. Is it better than thoughts ? Maybe it feels better. But ultimately, it's the same stuff that should not be clinged to. For me, as i understand it nowadays, the point is not to "wake up from thought", it's about getting in a place where you don't cling to anything : thoughts, perceptions, whatever. At the moment you begin to discriminate between different states and try to get out of "what is now", then you are necessarily clinging. So okay, we observe, in zazen, that we get in and out of thoughts. But for what i understand, sitting with any intention to change our state does not fit with the core of the teachings. For me, the division between "caught up" and "aware" is just another delusion. As long as you cling to any of your sensation or state, you are by definition deluded. The hard work of zazen is, for me, to see that I, in fact, want my state to change all the time and to let those useless intentions go.
Hope this does not come out as hard criticism, just interested in debating those questions !

Thanks !

Gassho,

Ugrok
Sat today

PS : another question comes : is it really possible to sit zazen "idling thumbs" ? I mean, put anyone in the proper zazen posture in front of a white wall for 20 minutes, and he or she will necessarily experience the coming and going of thought trains and the like. Just sitting in front of a wall, even for a few minutes, is not something easy for most people and requires work and perseverance ! I don't know of anyone who could do it like that, with no effort whatsoever, out of the blue, without being disturbed or facing difficulties. I think the emphasis on coming out of thought by focusing on the breathe or the posture that we find in lots of teachers writings is just a mean to get people - especially when they begin practicing - to be calmer (because of course, the less you think, the calmer you are), and thus less clingy.

[Byokan]

Hi All,

Alan,
thank you, you summarize it very clearly!

Ernst,
Yes, we need that framework, and need to use metaphor to discuss these things. I don’t think it is arrogant at all. Phil & Sophia are friends of mine too. There is a time to sit, and there is also a time to study and discuss. I think of the study and discussion as being similar to a musician practicing and playing scales before playing the concert, or an athlete training before the event. When the time comes, you put all that down and just go wholeheartedly into the event.

Sam,
I think maybe I understand what you mean... If you are cautioning against “allowing,” turning into a lazy thumb-twiddling free-for-all, I get that. Even Buddha had an intent when he sat down under the bodhi tree. Which is a paradox, but hey, paradox is our zen bread and butter, yes?

Ugrok,
I think you are right on the money, it’s the desire to either hold on to, or to change, what you’re experiencing, that mucks everything up.


I think this question about the thoughts will always come up, and always be interesting, and always lead eventually into a knot of words and ideas so tangled that we have to just put it down (and go sit). Some of us approach the practice through ideas and words, some of us are more about the body and sensation, and others may be more about feelings or emotion, and all are valid ways to approach The Great Whatever-It-Is. And I’m also guessing that our individual answers will change and evolve with our practice. I think it’s good to pick it up and toss it around for a while. Of course, we can't figure it out mentally, we have to practice and put the rubber to the road. When we’re done here we really should borrow Ankai‘s bike and go for a ride!

Gassho
Lisa
sat today

[Troy]

The birds have vanished down the sky.
Now the last cloud drains away.

We sit together, the mountain and me,
until only the mountain remains.

--Li Po


_|sat2day|_

[Jundo]

Jundo,

I think you misunderstood what I said. I am definitely not proposing sitting like a bump on a log. At the same time, I am not saying we run away from thoughts. I am just saying we need to have a clear intent to wake up from thought (along with or without an object) when we sit. Without having that, we may think we are sitting in wholeness but we are simply fooling ourselves. Without such an anchor and intention it is easy to fool ourselves that we are doing Zazen when we are in fact caught up in thoughts most of the time. I am not saying the goal is to eliminate all thought. Do we agree so far?

I believe there is a risk of being caught in semantics. Just do not grab thoughts. If finding oneself caught in trains of thought, open the hand and ungrab. Sometimes thoughts will come, sometimes not. Do not chase after them, do not grab on, neither try to chase away.

A Light manifests that shines through both thoughts and their absence and all the dichotomies of this World. Sit as the mirror which holds both thoughts and no thought, love and hate, good and bad, beautiful and ugly and all the "this and thats" of the world without judgement, resistance or division.

In fact, the mirror even holds all small human judgement or neutrality, resistance vs. yielding, division and unity without judgement, resistance and division! So we speak, for example, of a kind of (big "N&J") "Non-Judgement" that sweeps in and holds even both our times of small human judgement and small human neutrality. The result is that the judgments, frictions and resistances of this world and ordinary life which typically fill our human minds may remain ... yet simultaneously not remain and never did ... and thus are present yet wholly changed.

For example, I saw a horrible story in the news this morning of a father who killed a child. It is sickening, I am so saddened, I am so sad for the little child. This ordinary world is so ugly sometimes, and people's anger and delusion are to be condemned. As a human being, I never want to lose my power of judgement of good and bad, and this is simply bad ... evil. I will ALWAYS resist and be heartbroken by such violence, I will never accept (nor would I want to accept and tolerate such violence to children, because I cherish my humanity). But at the same timeless time, I sit as the mirror of Wisdom and Compassion, in radical Non-Judgement and Non-Resistance. In this mirror, all is passing visions ... all is light ... and there is never a father to do violence, no child apart, nor even death (no kiddin', for there is only Mirror, whole and still. And each thing and event of this life is a mirror like drop reflected all the other things and events of this life). Nonetheless, there is also father and child and death ... suffering and loss. ALL AT ONCE, AS ONE.

I can only describe the outcome as death no death, sadness and (Big J) Joy, broken pieces, broken heart, shattered lives as simultaneously Heart and Mirror Unbreakable.

Now coming to the “Sitting in Wholeness” part. This is how I understand it. Despite having a method and intent, if we start judging our Zazen (basing on how it is going) or create a division (that it is Zazen only the time we are aware and all other caught-up time is non-Zazen and hence not good) then it is not whole anymore. Despite doing our best to stay with the method we need to keep away all judgments and thoughts like “that there is a me doing Zazen and this me needs something out of Zazen and hence the practice needs to go good”

That is good. The only point is that the "method" is that there is no "method". The mirror has no "method" to be the mirror, but just sits as mirror. The mirror does not have a method or goal to become the mirror. Thus, our "method" is to sit dropping all methods and goals. If we have a method or goal to become mirrorlike, we make it as if we are standing apart from the mirror (we are never in actuality, although we feel so).

Capiche?

Ugrok ...

there is ultimately nothing you can, so to speak, "hang your hat on", so there is nothing you should cling to. ... For me, as i understand it nowadays, the point is not to "wake up from thought", it's about getting in a place where you don't cling to anything : thoughts, perceptions, whatever.

In Emptiness, the passing show of the mirror, all is constantly changing, nothing to "hang one's hat on". Do not cling to the passing show.

And yet, and yet, on Buddha Mirror Bright, one can hang one's hat.

Gassho, J

PS - This is the horrible story, a father racked by delusion. This is the Koan we sit as. I NEVER want to accept such tragedy (I never will) ... yet Buddha Eye. Mirror Mind, Big "A" Accepts All Passing Reflections, even Accepting for me that I will never ever accept, Accepting even my nonacceptance, revulsion and sadness ...

http://news.yahoo.com/police-girl-5-dies-being-thrown-florida-bridge-083855580.html

[shikantazen]

Thanks Jundo

In essence it is a non-manipulative, non-judgmental, no-expectations sitting. Whatever happens in sitting is okay (Non-Judgmental) and we get nothing from sitting (no expectations).

I am good thus far. Let us now add the "thoughts" piece.

We are introducing rules now. Something that is supposed to happen (and not supposed to happen) during Zazen. Manipulating our Zazen slightly. Redirecting it gently from the "natural" course to what we want it to be.

"don't grab on to thoughts. if you find yourself caught up then ungrab". don't you think adding a rule like this adds judgments to the non-judgmental sitting? whether we want it or not isn't there a judgment when we grab on (oh this is not supposed to happen). "Whatever happens in sitting is okay" has now become "Whatever happens in sitting is okay except getting caught up".

Instead of the above ungrab instruction, why not this "alternate" instruction/non-instruction: "In sitting, getting caught up and coming back to awareness happens by itself. don't worry about either. we don't sit and try to intentionally/purposefully think about something. Other than that whatever "getting caught up and coming back" that is naturally happening is fine. we don't judge or worry about it."

If I understand you correctly, you (and most zen teachers) don't agree with the alternate instruction above. You are more leaning towards the first one. There needs to be a clear intent to return and not to grab on. I feel many students who are asked to sit non-judgmentally cannot also add in the not-grab on rule strictly; when they try they at best go toward the "alternate" instruction route.

I feel you cannot do both. Sit non-judgmentally, non-manipulatively and then have a slight rule not to grab on (or ungrab when caught up). They both are conflicting. I either have to sit with clear intent to return and be busy with that OR I sit non-judgmentally (not worry about getting caught up too as mentioned in "alternate" instruction)

Gassho,
Sam
Sat Today

[dharmasponge]

There must be something hard about all this, otherwise it would be simple and this thread would not be as long as it is

Sat Today

[Jika]

Self-fulfilling prophecy, Tony?
Take care.

Gassho,
Danny
#sattoday

[Anshu Bryson]

"Instead of the above ungrab instruction, why not this "alternate" instruction/non-instruction: "In sitting, getting caught up and coming back to awareness happens by itself. don't worry about either..."

Gassho,
Sam
Sat Today

Sam,

For me, this is seldom the case. "In sitting, getting caught up and coming back to awareness" does NOT happen by itself. Oftentimes, 'getting caught up' simply leads into getting caught up further. A thought 'seeds' itself, then takes root, then an internal conversation begins. All of this leading back to 'self'. I need to have that mechanism of ungrasping or letting go of the thought. But that's just me; we all have our own experiences...

Gassho,

Bryson

sat today

[Ugrok]

Thanks Jundo, Sam and everyone for the further input. There is something i'd like to talk about, as it seems to happen for me this way during sitting :

To "ungrab" your thoughts, you first have to notice that you are caught in thoughts. Maybe the question should be "how do you notice ?" and / or "do YOU really notice ?". Or even "Is there someone who notices ?" What i mean is that the noticing of "us being caught in thoughts", cannot be a result of intention. It's not something of our doing. The noticing just happens, the train of thoughts just stops as everything else in our experience that just comes and goes, and then we believe WE "got out". But we did not : it just happens ! So, as the noticing is, anyway, totally beyond our conscious intention, there should be no intention at all regarding thoughts while sitting. Or we can believe there is intention, if we want, but this does not change a thing. So why bother, ahah !

Gassho,

Ugrok
Sat today

[Jishin]

There must be something hard about all this, otherwise it would be simple and this thread would not be as long as it is

Sat Today

No.

Gassho, Jishin, _/st\_

[dharmasponge]

No.

Gassho, Jishin, _/st\_

...hmmm....clearly there is thought Jishin - LOTS of discussion about this extremely simple thing.

I (sometimes) can appreciate your salient replies - but sometimes the reality outweighs them

"...follow your breath and when the mind strays return to it again and again..." = Simple

"...sit and don't think about your thoughts....don't not think about them either....don't allow them to distract you (from what?)...just sit and be present....don't...don't...don't...don't........." = IMO Extremely complex

[Jishin]

...hmmm....clearly there is thought Jishin - LOTS of discussion about this extremely simple thing.

I (sometimes) can appreciate your salient replies - but sometimes the reality outweighs them

"...follow your breath and when the mind strays return to it again and again..." = Simple

"...sit and don't think about your thoughts....don't not think about them either....don't allow them to distract you (from what?)...just sit and be present....don't...don't...don't...don't........." = IMO Extremely complex

No.

Gassho, Jishin, _/st\_