Thoughts and not thoughts…

[dharmasponge]

Hi everyone,

The advice we’re often given in Zazen is to sit and to merely witness thoughts rising and falling. This evokes the image of thoughts being separate from us, almost like they’re occurring in a sort of cognitive slideshow that we’re witnessing. I really struggle with this as whenever my mind quietens sufficiently to be able to o this it feels trapped in another cognitive process….I hope that makes sense.

A little like an inability to experience any sort of separation from thinking whether its calm or not – there seems to be a constant presence or dialogue sometimes whispering in my ear.

Any thoughts (no pun intended honest)!


Sat Today

[Jika]

Have you ever lived near a busy road or owned a noisy clock, and suddenly wondered why you almost never noticed the sound?

Who is this presence in your ear or dialogue, and why is listening to it more important than the birds outside the window?

The presence is useful to wish you a good day.

Gassho,
Danny
#sattoday

[Ongen]

Hi Dharmasponge (sorry I forgot your name at the time of writing was it Tony?)

I recognise this feeling well. We probably all do? My experience is that if you just sit, eventually you can let go even of that next 'cognitive process'. Until you meet the next one. Layer after layer the onion gets peeled until there's nothing left.
Gassho
Vincent

Sat Today

[Kokuu]

Hi Tony

I agree that the instruction to watch the thoughts does imply some kind of separation. Would it help to instead use the instruction 'experience the thoughts rising and falling'? Thoughts are no less you than an itch or aching leg. No more you either but that is another story!

Thoughts are to the mind as sweat is to the body. A quiet mind is a rarity for most of us. Do you have Brad's 'Sit Down and Shut Up'? He has a nice take on 'think-non-thinking' in chapter 4 (p42+). Summary - experience thinking as it is but try not to feed thoughts by following them or adding to them. You can also see/feel where they arise from and where they go (this might go further than Shikantaza but is an interesting exercise).

As regards feeling trapped in a cognitive process, it is a common thing for westerners (and maybe easterners too, I don't know) to meditate with their heads. Being more aware of the body during shikantaza can be helpful with that. Being more body centered also tends to have an effect of redusing thought frequency and velocity in my experience. You seem like a very thoughtful guy and (as someone who is a member of Lisa's overthinkers anonymous) I know this can make meditation harder than it needs to be at times. This instruction from Tibetan Mahamudra practice has helped me greatly and I do not think it is out of place in this context:

Let go of what has passed.
Let go of what may come.
Let go of what is happening now.
Don’t try to figure anything out.
Don’t try to make anything happen.
Relax, right now, and rest.

Gassho
Kokuu
#notsattoday-sickdaughterathome (she's in bed now though so going to grab 20 minutes shikantaza)

[Daiyo]

Hi all, I can definitely relate to what Tony says.

Many times I've thought that "just sitting" was a waste of time, since I am drifted away by trains of thoughts (cognition processes?) most of the sitting time, and over months of practising shikantaza it hasn't changed. I just can not watch thoughts, it's me who is busy thinking, I am my thinking.

Maybe it will take years to be able to experience thoughts as they arise instead of becoming aware I am thinking after several minutes. Maybe it will never happen.
Most of the times it's frustrating and makes me want to miss a day's sitting. A million of excuses arise not to sit the next day.

I try to see it as part of the practice and keep at it. Uchiyama Roshi's "Opening The Hand Of Thought" has helped me before, perhaps I need to read it again.

Gassho,
Walter

#SatToday

[dharmasponge]

I think I can sum it up by saying there are either thoughts (and lots of them) or a dull lack of awareness….rarely an awareness of any space between thoughts.

It’s not always this way though – there are the (very) rare occasions that my mind feels like a boulder resting on a pin head….but that’s too rare to be at all a source of inspiration.

[Ugrok]

Hello !

I struggled with that a lot when i begun practicing.

The more you want to get rid of your thoughts, the more they will bother you. It's not something to be fought or suppressed. Thoughts are of no importance at all, at least not anymore than anything else. When you think, think. Then, while sitting, you will have this "ahah" moment where you notice that you were thinking (if you had not, you would not post this ). Just this is sufficient. And it happens totally naturally, all the time. So let yourself think, and let yourself get out of thinking, and back again. Let yourself fight your thinking. Let yourself pay too much attention. Just let whatever happens, happen. There is no problem. The only thing you have to do is "just sit".

More and more, i think that all our problems are just problems because we make them problems. The thing to change is not that you think too much ; maybe it is too stop seeing this as a problem. To do that, just sit and sit and sit with your thoughts again and again. A great text from good old Kodo Sawaki :

TO YOU WHO GET OUT OF YOUR MIND TRYING SO HARD TO ATTAIN PEACE OF MIND

The buddha-dharma is immeasurable and unlimited. How could it ever have been made to fit into your categories. No matter what you are grasping for, it’s limited. In any case, only things for ordinary people can be grasped. Grasping for money, clinging to health, being attached to position and title, grasping for satori – everything you grasp only becomes the property of an ordinary person. Letting go of ordinary people’s property – that’s what it means to be a buddha. When peace of mind only means your personal satisfaction, then it’s got nothing to do with the buddha-dharma. The buddha-dharma teaches limitlessness. That which is measureless has to be accepted without complaint. You lack peace of mind because you’re running after an idea of total peace of mind. That’s backwards. Be attentive to your mind in each moment, no matter how unpeaceful it might seem to be. Great peace of mind is realized only in the practice within this unpeaceful mind. It arises out of the interplay between peaceful and unpeaceful mind. A peace of mind that is totally at peace would be nothing more than something ready made. Real peace of mind only exists within unpeaceful mind. When dissatisfaction is finally accepted as dissatisfaction, peace of mind reigns. It’s the mind of a person who had been deaf to criticism when he finally listens to others talking about his mistakes. It’s the mind of a person who, naked and begging for his life, suddenly dies peacefully. It’s the mind of a person who has suddenly lost the beggar who had been pulling at his sleeve, relentlessly following him around everywhere,. It’s the mind after the flood in which the make-up of piety has washed away.How could a human being ever have peace of mind? The real question is what you’re doing with this human life. What you’re doing with this stinking sack of flesh, that’s the issue.

[Kokuu]

Ugrok has it right, to my mind. We just sit. There is no aim to achieve any special state.

You wouldn't criticise a mirror for reflecting what is there.

Gassho
Kokuu
#sattoday

[Daiyo]

You wouldn't criticise a mirror for reflecting what is there.

Excellent, Kokuu, thank you.

Gassho,
Walter

#SatToday

[alan.r]

Maybe it will take years to be able to experience thoughts as they arise instead of becoming aware I am thinking after several minutes. Maybe it will never happen.

Walter

#SatToday

Hi Walter,

But you are experiencing thoughts as they arise. It's just that the time period isn't to your liking. Isn't the more important thing here to notice that you're not satisfied with "how good" you are at zazen? You are noticing thoughts as they arise, you're just not happy you're not noticing right away. Sounds like you're doing well to me.

Hi Tony, (too),

I would not say "witness" thoughts. Just be them. Whatever they are, let them come and be them. If you get lost in thoughts, come back to just sitting and get lost again and just sitting again. Just let go into getting lost in thoughts, surrender to it, stop trying to sit perfectly, and then no big deal, then they'll slow on their own, b/c you're not controlling anymore, thinking there should be less, watching to see how many thoughts you have. If you're tired and not aware, sit tired and not aware - like Ugrok says, don't fight it with ideas of better sitting as that's where separation comes in. If a lot of thoughts are running, just go with the thoughts running and keep sitting and, in your stillness of body, your thoughts will slow - they may not disappear, but so what. You're sitting, you're here, there are thoughts, it's okay, all one.

That's what I see here. What Kokuu says about the body sounds good to me, too.

Gassho,
Alan
sattoday

[Ugrok]

The magical thing, for me, is that as long as we keep on sitting, this all sorts out by itself. So don't even try "not to try" - which is the next logical trap i fell in, obviously ("okay, now i'll really let go and let my thoughts be totally free !" this does not work either - because in fact there is no problem to solve other than one we are totally making ourselves !). The solution to all this stuff and those unnecessary knots is the sitting itself ! As long as you are sitting with whatever is, even if it is "fighting" or "struggling" or "trying not to try", it's ok. Don't bother with anything else than sitting.

Gassho

Ugrok, satoday

[Jundo]

Hi Tony,

We do not "witness thoughts", we do not "experience the thoughts". Please do not try to find "where they arise from or where they go".

Rather, just ignore the thoughts, do not grab on, do not become tangled, and pay 'em no never mind. If there is a "a constant presence or dialogue sometimes whispering in my ear" simply let it whisper, do not respond or answer back. (As in the dripping faucet analogy below), thoughts come and go, and we do not seek to halt them, we do not seek to open the spigot wider ... but neither do we engage. The Mahamudra instruction from Kokuu feels right ...

Let go of what has passed.
Let go of what may come.
Let go of what is happening now.
Don’t try to figure anything out.
Don’t try to make anything happen.
Relax, right now, and rest.

If you think "there is a gap", then there is a gap of your own making. If one does not think "there is a gap", then there is no gap. Please stop thinking that "there is a gap" ... and the gap is gone.

Tony said ...

I think I can sum it up by saying there are either thoughts (and lots of them) or a dull lack of awareness…. ….rarely an awareness of any space between thoughts.

No, you just make these artificial divisions and categories. Bullshit.

I once lived in a cheap apartment with a dripping faucet outside my window. The landlord promised to fix it, but did not. When I would obsess and focus on the dripping, it would become so loud and drive me mad. I could not sleep. But, after awhile, I just did not engage. The faucet was still dripping ... drip drip drip ... but I did not hear, was not aware, not disturbed. Yes, the "dripping" is our thoughts. No need to turn them off, just do not pay heed, do not fixate, do not be caught.

During Zazen, if finding oneself caught, tangled, engaging with the drip drip drip ... let it go. Disengage. Return to just sitting (to the posture of the breath if one needs). Water still drips and drips, but you do not drown in it.

One more point:

What Kokuu said here about "no special state" is a bit misleading ... because every state. moment and thing is Special!

We just sit. There is no aim to achieve any special state.

You wouldn't criticise a mirror for reflecting what is there.

No, to be a mirror ... unfazed and allowing of all that is reflected within it, all the states, moments and things, beautiful and ugly, big and small ... is a most "special state". It is the "special state" in which one finds the wholeness, interpenetration and sacred nature of even the most ordinary and mundane displayed in the clarity of the mirror. "Just Sitting" does not mean "just sittin' around"!

Stop judging the experience and, instead, sit beyond judgments in the Total Completeness of the simple act of sitting. Do not forget to sit with the attitude that sitting is in and of itself a perfect action, the one place to be and one thing to do in that moment of sitting. Sit with the attitude of "nothing in need of fixing, nothing to add or take away" from that moment. Sit with the attitude that a moment of sitting is a moment of Buddha Sitting. Then, every drop of water holds the entire Ocean!

But if you think something is lacking, that there is some separation, something to fix, then guess what!? Then there is separation, lacking and much to fix. The faucet goes DRIP DRIP DRIP!

Instead, sit as a mirror, and every drop of water is a sacred drop of Buddha. Buddha drippiing dripping dripping Buddha.

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday

[Jinyo]

Hi Tony - some helpful answers here. I think we all experience what you describe.

I really feel to just relax into what is. Perhaps some other traditions focus on being free from cognition but that isn't the essence of Zazen

(as I understand it).

I would say to be able to 'think not thinking' there has to be a thinker - it's not necessary to try to abolish that facet of mind. And zazen is often messy - thoughts/cognitions floating all over the place - no different to life in general.

The gift is honing the ability to observe - to detatch but not negate. That's quite a gift to take into our everyday lives - for me that's where this practice really kicks
into action.

And sometimes - not all that often - I experience a real sense of peace. Best not to stress about whether that's a pure experience or a cognition - it's just good when it happens

Gassho

Willow

Sat Today - and it was very messy - just an observation not a judgement.

[Rich]

Usually if I allow all my thoughts and feelings, they pass away like everything else. Try practicing Teflon Zen. Nothing sticks to it 😃😁😂
Sat today

[Heisoku]

Hi Tony
Steve Heine in his book 'Buddhism: it's not what you think' makes a lovely observation that it is really difficult to recall exactly what was in your mind when you started reading this sentence. If you maintain that awareness then that's a start!
The next question by Bassui to follow up with is 'What is your mind?'
Don't you just love this zen stuff!
Gassho
Heisoku
Sat today.