Thoughts and not thoughts…

[Jundo]

Thanks Jundo...I guess I am at the same time overwhelmed with those teachings from my past. The Suttas, Anapanasati and the Satipattana Sutta...the four foundations of Mindfulness and so on. It feels like in order to follow the path of Zazen (Shikantaza) I'd have to turn away and somehow divorce myself from them.

Divorce is a very strong word. I do not find any conflict with the Suttas and our Practice. As you know, there is great diversity in the Suttas, some of which applies and some not.

Perhaps it is simply like someone who has practiced Karate for years, now practicing Aikido. I would not call it a conflict or a divorce, and just another approach. Some is the same, some not. Another road intersecting, same Buddha mountain.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[dharmasponge]

Thanks Jundo...I guess I am at the same time overwhelmed with those teachings from my past. The Suttas, Anapanasati and the Satipattana Sutta...the four foundations of Mindfulness and so on. It feels like in order to follow the path of Zazen (Shikantaza) I'd have to turn away and somehow divorce myself from them.

[Jundo]

Do you think that some of us struggle (newbies to Zen and particularly Dogen) with the differences between what is commonly seen as a progression towards liberation and that which seems to be a radical acceptance of things just as they are?

To date I have seen reality in terms of there being suffering and a wish to attain a state free from suffering. The reason I suffer is because I still see myself as a separate entity..non-empty if you like.

How can I alleviate this suffering? By experiencing, understanding…which ever way you dress it to see through the illusion of separateness for good.

It’s just how this is brought about, seen or experienced (again pick one) by accepting things as they are ie. Suffering. Merely accepting this suffering might bring about a perfected state of attrition were I am anaesthetised to suffering – but this is not the same as becoming free from it (IMO).

I echo what Kokuu said, Tony.

I would also say, however, that there is something amiss with your dichotomy of "a progression towards liberation and that which seems to be a radical acceptance of things just as they are".

First, we "progress" by liberation from the need to change, to add, to take away, to become. Human beings are filled with the desire and craving to do that, driven by greed anger and divisive thoughts, while Buddhas rest in the Peace and Wholeness of Just This. Perhaps one way to "really get somewhere" and "progress" is to stop and realize what is here all along and to abandon the greed and need.

Second (as we have been discussing all through this thread"), accepting things "just as they are" -- is not -- "just accepting things as they are"! It is not sitting in complacency, resignation, wallowing in our mess, filled with that greed, anger and division. Rather, it is a radical "Just" of Wholeness, Clarity and Peace which drops away the mess, greed and all the rest.

Third, what must truly be accomplished is actually a TRANSCENDING of all these questions. Thus, for example, one ultimately realizes Peace and Wholeness, all while our hearts simultaneously break for all the war, violence and suffering in this world. One realizes that there is nothing to fix, but we set about to fix it nonetheless. We realize that there is "nothing about us" in need of changing, and we are "Buddha all along" ... yet we are far from being Buddha, and have much to repair about ourselves to progress in that direction (We may be Buddha all along, but we rarely see so or act so). We experience a broken heart at the death of someone we love AND SIMULTANEOUSLY the experience of a Heart which cannot be broken, cannot be lost, beyond even life and death. Our goal is far from anaesthetising ourselves. Rather, I would say that we experience suffering so long a we are human ... all while totally free of suffering at once. Yes, suffering-no-suffering ... the Bodhisattva Path.

Transcend the dichotomies, and stop searching for things in all the wrong places.

Gassho, J

[Kokuu]

Do you think that some of us struggle (newbies to Zen and particularly Dogen) with the differences between what is commonly seen as a progression towards liberation and that which seems to be a radical acceptance of things just as they are?

To date I have seen reality in terms of there being suffering and a wish to attain a state free from suffering. The reason I suffer is because I still see myself as a separate entity..non-empty if you like.

Hi Tony

I think that is a very likely reason why many of us struggle. Personally, I struggle with my illness daily. I have pain and don't want pain. Paradoxically, the way of least suffering is to accept I have the pain and be with it rather than thinking about how it feels to be well or the path to getting well. Is really very annoying and I am not always very good at it!

For me the main cause of suffering is wanting life to be something different than it is. In fact the more I want life to be different than it is, the more I suffer. Shikantaza is (as I understand it) the practice of letting life be as it is and dropping that sense of separation between self and other. Not feeling that sense of no-separation? Well, wanting that feeling is only going to bring more separation and more suffering! Wanting enlightment is just another darned craving and the idea of enlightenment is just another thing which our present situation can never match up to.

Really, the trick is in letting go. Sitting is like one of those Chinese finger traps. The more you struggle against how things are, the more it hurts. Although we undoubtledly improve in our ability to sit with things, liberation is available right here, right now in every moment we let go of our idea of how things should be.

Thai Forest teacher Ajahn Chah has some great words of advice:

“Do everything with a mind that lets go... If you let go a little you a will have a little peace; if you let go a lot you will have a lot of peace; if you let go completely you will have complete peace.”

This is true for all of life but especially for meditation. Relax, let go of ideas of progressions and progress, and sit with how things are. Or, as Taigu might say it, empty your bowl.

Gassho
Kokuu
#sattoday

[Myosha]

Hello,

Holy shot, who is you?

Just a salty suggestion.


Gassho,
Myosha sat today

[dharmasponge]

Do you think that some of us struggle (newbies to Zen and particularly Dogen) with the differences between what is commonly seen as a progression towards liberation and that which seems to be a radical acceptance of things just as they are?

To date I have seen reality in terms of there being suffering and a wish to attain a state free from suffering. The reason I suffer is because I still see myself as a separate entity..non-empty if you like.

How can I alleviate this suffering? By experiencing, understanding…which ever way you dress it to see through the illusion of separateness for good.

It’s just how this is brought about, seen or experienced (again pick one) by accepting things as they are ie. Suffering. Merely accepting this suffering might bring about a perfected state of attrition were I am anaesthetised to suffering – but this is not the same as becoming free from it (IMO).

[Byokan]

When I sit, I sit like I am on the top of a mountain admiring the view. There is no need to achieve anything or be anywhere else. I think you once described something similar when visiting a country church. This, for me, is the attitude to cultivate - oepn curiosity. Listen with your whole body. You are the eyes of the world.

Gassho
Lisa
sat today

[shikantazen]

photo (4).jpg

[dharmasponge]

Kokuu....almost like you read my mind! That's exactly the type of dialogue I have. The narrative is tediously predictable.

Didn't sit today.....but will tomorrow _/|\_

[Jundo]

Walter

I wouldn't be too hasty. Jundo might well suggest that following my advice is a very bad idea!

Good sitting.

Kokuu
#sattoday

Quite the contrary.


Gassho, J

SaTToday

[Jinyo]

'Practice for me is like Sam describes - periods of openness punctuated by realising I have been following thoughts. The ratio of this varies from sit to sit. However, the catch is not to see the periods of openness as 'good sitting' and the following thoughts as 'bad sitting'. Sure, I aim not to feed thoughts but it happens. The practice is the sitting itself, not the end result. The more we strive for good sitting and enlightenment, the harder practice is going to be. I can completely understand why that is a hard thing to drop, though. '


Thanks Kokuu - I think this explains it well.


Back to the Mountain top,



Willow

sat today

[Kokuu]

Walter

I wouldn't be too hasty. Jundo might well suggest that following my advice is a very bad idea!

Good sitting.

Kokuu
#sattoday

[Daiyo]

When I sit, I sit like I am on the top of a mountain admiring the view. There is no need to achieve anything or be anywhere else.

Wonderful.
A very useful and clear definition.

Thank you

Gassho,
Walter.

(About to sit with this attitude now)

[Kokuu]

It's the 'practice' of Shikantaza that eludes me. Just sitting feels like I am just sitting...like before I got on the cushion I was just laying....no difference then why bother? If there is a difference what is it? That difference is apparently not what I should be doing.

Hi Tony

For me, the reason why shikantaza is such a good practice is that it cuts right at the heart of our desire to be achieving something, to be getting somewhere and to be doing something right. I'm a recovering achiever and know this feeling well.

I may be wrong but your posts usually come with a feel of wanting to get somewhere or of getting something right. Sitting with that kind of feeling is anthetical to the nature of shikantaza. If you feel the same when sitting as when normally lying down then my guess is you are probably sitting thinking. I would extend my guess further (and feel free to correct me) and suggest that the thinking probably goes a little like this (and I am speaking from personally experience!):

"This isn't meditating, it is just sitting doing nothing."
"Shikantaza is never going to get me enlightened. I would be better doing vipassana."
"This is a waste of time."
"Am I doing this right?"
"What should I be doing when the thoughts appear?"
"I need to ask Jundo about whether I am doing this right."

Engage with the thoughts and yes, you are just sitting thinking. You don't have to do anything active, though. Just don't feed the thoughts. They are just thoughts. For me, thoughts about practice are the trickiest kind of thoughts as they seem to be helping rather than (like thoughts about what is for dinner or whether you need to get petrol for your car) interfering with your practice. Thoughts about practice are the same and do not need to be engaged with.

Practice for me is like Sam describes - periods of openness punctuated by realising I have been following thoughts. The ratio of this varies from sit to sit. However, the catch is not to see the periods of openness as 'good sitting' and the following thoughts as 'bad sitting'. Sure, I aim not to feed thoughts but it happens. The practice is the sitting itself, not the end result. The more we strive for good sitting and enlightenment, the harder practice is going to be. I can completely understand why that is a hard thing to drop, though.

When I sit, I sit like I am on the top of a mountain admiring the view. There is no need to achieve anything or be anywhere else. I think you once described something similar when visiting a country church. This, for me, is the attitude to cultivate - oepn curiosity. Listen with your whole body. You are the eyes of the world.

In the Buddha's time one of his sangha was a lute player called Sona. When instructing Sona he explained that focus in meditation is like the string of a lute - too tight and you may snap, too loose and nothing happens. It may be that your strings need loosening a little. Let go and let things be as they are. What is it about this present moment that isn't whole and complete all by itself?

Anyway, these are the thoughts of a beginner of the path and I totally expect Jundo to come along soon and explain the bits where I am leading you astray!

Gassho
Kokuu
#sattoday

[michaeljc]

If I were to adopt the very erect Japanese conservative posture I would to need support this with back muscles. They could not relax. That does not ring true to me. I have played around with ways to set up the posture which most suits me. If I stand in attention like a soldier then completely relax directly downwards, letting the belly push out to maximum - that is my spinal posture. The head needs to be tilted foreword just a little. I have been criticised for getting too hollow in the chest on occasions.

Whatever, after 25 years of sitting, including 7-day sesshin, I have never experienced back-pain. Maybe because my knees are hurting to damned much.

Just sharing here - not lecturing

m

Sat 2-day