Disturbing sect

[Ongen]

Disturbing sect

Hi Tony,

I don't see any sect bashing, more fact checking. The reason I started this thread is this:
Personally if I hear stories like this I want to know what it is about in order to be able to take the right action when it is needed. What better place to fact check than this one?

Perhaps I should have made that more clear in the original post.

Nevertheless If I read the thread back, I mostly see moderate and reasonable responses.

I don't know about the Dalai Lama or Tibetan politics, as soon as politics comes in I lose interest honestly. Not my cup of tea.

What I do know is that I read a disturbing story of a man who says his life was badly influenced by this sect, and if that is true I want to be able to warn people around me if they happen to run into such a group.

I honestly see nothing wrong with that.

You offer an unbiased take on this. Why not share it here? I would love to hear it!

Thanks everyone for the input.

Gassho

Vincent

Sat today


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Kokuu]

Hi Tony

That information about children not being able to attain an education is incorrect and propaganda spread by the pro Shugden groups as is not being able to attain medical support. There is no basis to it. His Holiness has had to take a decision based on the views of all Buddhist schools in Tibet and not just a minority of practitioners in one. That some people have had a traditional practice banned is indeed sad and the cause of suffering but allowing it to continue would also have caused suffering. What is the right decision?

How much do you know about Shugden practice? Supporters of the practice admit that this protector is venerated specifically to cause harm to practitioners who take teachings outside of the tradition (including His Holiness). This violates one of the precepts and is recorded in two books from Sugden practitioners. It is designed to promote the political domination of one sect over all of the others. I have researched this very thoroughly after being involved in the NKT and do not speak from rumour or hearsay. The group speaking out against His Holiness has been called out again and again for their lies and misinformation and use of underhand tactics such as monks posing as independent journalists. Does this sound like Right Action or Right Speech?

Personally, I think that it would be unwise not to warn people about worrying Buddhist traditions. In American Zen it took time to speak out against teachers guilty of abuse. Some people think Buddhists should speak only kind and pleasing words. Sometimes, I believe we need to take a stand and this is one of those times.

Please let me know which parts of my information you consider inaccurate here or privately and I will be happy to debate with you. I stand by everything I have said above which comes first hand from my own experience from living in an NKT centre and contact with members and past members of that organisation who have been affected by the NKT and extensive research on Tibetan traditions which I was a part of for many years.

Gassho
Kokuu

[dharmasponge]

To be honest I really don't want to get sucked into an NKT slagging session. It's all been done before. It's cumbersome and counterproductive.

I have met many many NKT people over the years both in their centre's and privately. I can state that they have never been anything other than gentle and kind people dedicated to their chosen tradition. Not the cult victims they're made out to be. That is my personal experience over the last thirty years. I am sure in an organisation that size there will be those who have negative experiences. That's what happens when a group of humans get together!

In terms of Geshe Kelsang. I neither know or care whether he has a Geshe degree. I do know that his books are clear and concise. Dharma presented for the western palate. What's wrong with that??

The devotion to their Lama is no more strange than people being 'followers' of the Dalai Lama. What's the difference? Guru devotion is at the heart of the Tibetan tradition. So why is it considered virtuous for people to follow the political leader of Tibet, but following your chosen teacher is cult like? More Emporers Clothes.

My understanding is that they're protesting against the Dalai Lamas banning of a centuries old practice and his consistent inability to compromise at the very least. It's pathological that he refuses to acknowledge the suffering that his actions have caused.

Kokuu your take on Shugden practice is wholly unfamiliar to me and frankly sounds like the medieval fantasies that I hear from Dalai Lama followers. He has even said that people who continue this practice are contributing to shortening his life and harming the Tibetan cause. I thought he was supposed to be intelligent???

Finally I'm afraid you're wrong regarding it not being true that people are refused medical care and so on. They're not even allowed to enter certain shops without producing their 'card'.

There was a documentary made by a Swiss TV service that attempted to get to the bottom of this matter. The result was shocking and proved the above allegations to be true.

I am done here regarding this subject. The facts are there for all to see. As someone once said if the truth can be told so it is understood, it WILL be believed.

[dharmasponge]

Apologies for typos BTW. Got a 1 year old throwing Lego at me!

Happy Christmas

Oh.....

...I sat today!

[Kokuu]

Hi Tony

Personally I believe that debate is helpful in correcting inaccuracies.

My understanding is that they're protesting against the Dalai Lamas banning of a centuries old practice and his consistent inability to compromise at the very least. It's pathological that he refuses to acknowledge the suffering that his actions have caused.

Kokuu your take on Shugden practice is wholly unfamiliar to me and frankly sounds like the medieval fantasies that I hear from Dalai Lama followers.

I am afraid your understanding is exactly that put out by the NKT and Western Shugden Society and is a massive oversimplification of the issue. They are very adept at propaganda and manipulating the media and maintain control of the Wikipedia pages on the associated subjects. It is indeed a centuries old practice but one explicitly designed to foster Gelug interests at the expense of other schools under the threat of harm and death. I do not personally believe that this would happen but the fact is that Tibetans do and Shugden practice is extremely divisive. Pro Shugden Lamas have written several books on the harm this protector can do and celebrate the fact he has apparently caused the death of monks who have fallen out of line.

I too know many lovely NKT people and am still friends with several. The 'in any large organisation there will be issues' argument is frankly a non-starter though and defence of the many bad things that have happened to people. No other Buddhist organisation has several internet groups for survivors of their membership of a group. That is not to say that the NKT has not been helpful for many people. I would not argue with that. Doubtless many people also benefitted from teachers such as Genpo Roshi and Chogyam Trungpa while others were very harmed by their actions.

I do agree with you that His Holiness could have handled this whole situation better. There may well have been instances of Shugden practitioners being mistreated in India and any of this needs addressing. There is one video of one Shugden devotee being refused entry to one shop but even this is unacceptable. All of the evidence of mistreatment was given to Amnesty though and they found no basis in it. Shugden Society videos have repeatedly been shown to lack credibility but any independent evidence needs to be looked at thoroughly and His Holiness needs to address it.

As to the subject of a Geshe degree, I agree that is neither here nor there in terms of his ability to teach. However, if the leader of a Buddhist organisation claims to have a recognised qualification that he does not, this is worrying. It would be like Jundo claiming to have received dharma transmission when he has not.

This is probably not the place for a lengthy debate on this organisation but the facts are not as clear as you make out. The NKT remains a worrying organisation that I would advise genuine dharma practitioners to avoid and I do not say this lightly or without having considered the fact very carefully.

Gassho
Kokuu

[dharmasponge]

I guess the only difference is I would advise people not to avoid, but to investigate and make up their own minds.

[Myosha]

Hello,

Metta to all.

Shutup.


Gassho,
Myosha sat today

[Kokuu]

I guess the only difference is I would advise people not to avoid, but to investigate and make up their own minds.

I think that is a very fair comment, Tony.


Kokuu

[Ongen]

Tony, Kokuu,

Thank you both for this discussion. I too think that people should make up their own minds.
But while they do so, it is also good for them to have some background in order not to bite into possible brainwashing or indoctrination activities such as are described in the link above.

These things work even on the most alert and intelligent people (I have seen it happening in a christian context here in Holland) and are not to be taken lightly. Making up ones own mind in these cases could sneakily be turned into having ones mind made up by someone else.

In this context and with the above info I would advise people to be extra careful with this organisation.
That said, If I felt I would need to say something like that about am organisation I would not advise anyone to get involved in it alltogether anyway and find a more innocent one. There's plenty of those around

Gassho

Vincent

Sat today


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jundo]

Having no horse in this race, and not knowing how to judge the situation, I can just offer Metta to all involved.

Perhaps we should concentrate on our own garden here, and not so much on the neighbors.

If there is a cultish or abusive situation, it should be criticized, but it is very hard for an outsider to know what is the full story.

Gassho, J

SitAlong!

[Joyo]

Perhaps we should concentrate on our own garden here, and not so much on the neighbors.
.

Gassho, J

SitAlong!

Very wise words, Jundo.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

[Mp]

Having no horse in this race, and not knowing how to judge the situation, I can just offer Metta to all involved.

Perhaps we should concentrate on our own garden here, and not so much on the neighbors.

If there is a cultish or abusive situation, it should be criticized, but it is very hard for an outside to know what is the full story.

Gassho, J

SitAlong!

Nicely said Jundo, thank you. =)

Gassho
Shingen

Sat Holly Jolly Today =)