Dharma itself as livelihood

[Meikyo]

Hi Sangha-friends!

From time to time I frequent the various web incarnations of the danish Buddhist communities just to see what they're up to this present moment.

It occurred to me that almost all of them (all the major ones regardless of lineage) very openly and therefore presumably without any shame charge money up-front for their Teachings. This got me thinking. We live in a time now where the traditional monasteries no longer hold the status they once did as centers of Dharma-education. Smaller local and non-residential centers are slowly taking up that function. People can now make a living as Dharma-teachers by selling books and doing lecture-tours/retreats.

It this okay I ask? To charge money for the Teachings on the whole and as a consequence perhaps make a living propounding them?
Is it the pinnacle of Right Livelihood? Or is it in fact cheating by selling knowledge that's not yours to sell? Aren't you charging money for people's own nature?

My own view:

I tend towards the view (as you might have guessed) that you shouldn't charge anything. I think it's unethical. At least as far the knowledge itself is concerned. On the point of the teaching enterprise it's not that one should not travel around teaching. By all means! But they should not expect to be paid for it in order to make a living. If anything having chosen the part of the Teacher one might have to pay up a little even. The way I see it is that you do it because you think it's important and right. Like volunteer work or having a child.

On the point of the non-charging Sangha; I realize people need a roof over their heads and zafus to sit on when they're not like Treeleaf. My thoughts on that are that you might set up an appropriate membership fee. People who pay that help to keep the center running and in return may get symbolic privileges that do not as such interfere with the availability of the Teachings themselves to the public. Examples could be: priority on a already overbooked sesshin, a vote on how to spend surplus money or which teacher to invite over from abroad. A vote on the Sangha organization bylaws etc.
If there are not enough contributing members then the Sangha is clearly not mature enough yet to have a center of it's own.

These are just some thoughts.

I would like your points of view. I think it's a necessary to discuss the relationship between Dharma and funds now that a new type of urban (+ western) lay-Buddhism is slowly emerging.

NB. This does not have anything to do (I think) with the concept of donations (something extra given out of kindness) or the ongoing thread about Treeleaf-donations. I'm cool with that. It has to do with the practical financial structure of personal and Sangha economy of the day-to-day kind. Luckily it's not so important for us at Treeleaf Sangha.

Thank you for your time.

Gassho
Aske

[Jundo]

Hi Aske,

Here is my personal view, just one opinion. Even clergy need to eat and pay the rent. This is especially true these days, when many or most have spouses and kids to feed and send to college.

However, I agree with you about the concerns.

That is why I favor a model based on Protestant ministers who have a day job (right livelihood, of course), and step into the pulpit on Sunday and when Sangha members need. I work as a translator of Japanese to fund activities here.

However, if they are full time clergy and have parishioners sufficient to do so, their organization should pay them a decent salary, including a pension and dental plan, like any other worker. They need to eat (this is not a society where you can just go into the street with your begging bowl, and it is actually illegal in much of the country anyway), and one cannot just sleep under a tree like in old India. Most folks, especially with families, would like a small house for their kids. healthy food and many of the comforts of modern life.

In Asia, the monasteries were mostly supported by donated agricultural land manned by serfs and slaves! Yes, it is true. When the land was taken away, the clergy had to find other sources of income, mostly the performance of ceremonies for funerals and good fortune. I do not think that is the best option either.

So, I favor the Protestant model and/or being paid a salary. Frankly, most Buddhist clergy I know say that folks are rather cheap! Christian Churches and Jewish Temples get lots of donations, and most people go to Buddhist groups and do not give much if purely voluntary (with some exceptions).

Gassho, J

[Meikyo]

Jundo:

Thank you for the opinion and insight.

I'm totally with you on the idea of a day job and the stepping in as needed.

Gassho

[Jishin]

Even clergy need to eat and pay the rent. This is especially true these days, when many or most have spouses and kids to feed and send to college.

I agree.

Gassho, Jishin

[Myosha]

Hello,

" . . . monasteries were mostly supported by donated agricultural land manned by serfs and slaves!"

Feudalism did have its' points!^^

My livelihood involves donation. The ineffable provides.


Gassho,
Myosha

[Kyonin]

Hi guys,

I agree with Jundo. Even clergy need to eat. I guess the Buddha didn't charge money for his teachings but lived out of donations.

So if you have a priest that is dedicated to service to the community full time, she should be allowed to have an income and security.

However, I also agree that priests should have a job and family because that way they get a sense of the world outside the church or temple. Besides earning income, of course.

So, I favor the Protestant model and/or being paid a salary. Frankly, most Buddhist clergy I know say that folks are rather cheap! Christian Churches and Jewish Temples get lots of donations, and most people go to Buddhist groups and do not give much if purely voluntary (with some exceptions).

Perhaps this is because in Buddhism there is no guilt involved?

And then there's the crazy western psychology thing. I have seen that people really commit to things when they have to pay for it. When it's free, they simply forget about it. Maybe that's the reason why so many Buddhist sanghas charge for their teachings.

I saw that back in the day when I attended the Triratna Center in Mexico City. They charge very comfortable fees for courses and the place was packed. The days when they offer free meditation sessions, it's empty.

Gassho,

Kyonin

[delphizealot]

I think people are always a bit uncomfortable when money is involved, as the world is full of scams and con artists. Even more so when you're dealing with a practice that explicitly promises it won't give you anything in return. Though, oddly, that may make it a more worthwhile investment, since there is essentially no risk of failure.

To be fair though, it strikes me that Buddhist practice asks us to give up a whole lot more than any sum of money. A con artist usually just wants your money. These zen guys want you drop everything, even dropping! It's wise to be wary of scams, but the worst con is the one I pull on myself.

[jphiled]

However, if they are full time clergy and have parishioners sufficient to do so, their organization should pay them a decent salary, including a pension and dental plan, like any other worker. They need to eat (this is not a society where you can just go into the street with your begging bowl, and it is actually illegal in much of the country anyway), and one cannot just sleep under a tree like in old India. Most folks, especially with families, would like a small house for their kids. healthy food and many of the comforts of modern life.

At my "other sangha" (a Jodo Shinshu temple here in the US), they use this model. The overarching organization allows for part-time ministers who are essentially volunteering their time, while the full-time ministers get a modest salary, insurance and retirement benefits. They don't make a lot of money, but they make a modest amount. I know some senior ministers who eventually retired from their fulltime jobs and became ministers toward retirement too.

I rather like this approach because it is kind of a nice "middle ground".

I greatly respect monastics who still do things the traditional way (and there are some sanghas who still do this), but I also appreciate the diversity of Buddhist institutions so that there's a place for lay priests as well. I hope to be in that latter category some day in some sangha somewhere.

[Jundo]

I also believe in the power of monastic training, and feel it right for some.

However, monasteries also presented a lifestyle in the past that was not so uncomfortable ... and actually pretty nice ... compared to general standards in the traditional agricultural and feudal societies of 500 or 2500 years ago. I do not think their life was as hard as one might imagine by the standards of the day. It is not so hard to give up one's car, computer, tv, cell phone and Ipod when ... they don't exist, as they did not in the 13th century! Even the wealthiest people of the day probably lived lives of surprising simplicity given that there was not much choice. (Even all the money and power of the day could not get someone indoor plumbing, lights or heating back then!). The monastery was certainly a better situation ... with regular meals, a roof over one's head, companionship, even the best of medical care of the day ... compared to how the peasants and average folks lived in centuries past. In fact, right outside the door of the monastery was often a world of violence, plague, limited options for education or "social mobility", and a day-to-day struggle just to feed one's family and survive! Compared to that, Sangha life was not unattractive ... and most governments in China, Korea and Japan had to enact strict limits on the number of people allowed to enter the monasteries! Through a variety of means, many monks coming to the monasteries were even able to retain or own property 'indirectly' while remaining in "technical compliance" with their vows of poverty, and most of the large monasteries from Kyoto to Tibet had huge land holdings ... and serfs and slaves (not considered morally wrong centuries ago) working them ... the income from which, while not privately owned by individual monks, was shared by all living in the monastery.

Anyway, I heard a recent Buddhist Geeks talk by Stephen Batchelor where, at the end, he comments that monasteries often existed for socio-economic reasons as much as religious (from 24:00 here).

http://www.buddhistgeeks.com/2014/09/bg-334-cultivating-democracy-imagination/

I have written a series on this, simply to remind folks that monasteries were not only peaches and cream ...

In some important ways, sincere lay practitioners today may enjoy better surrounding circumstances for practice than did the average monk in, for example, Dogen's day. Things in the "Golden Age" were not so golden as we too easily romanticize. Most monks back then were half-educated (even in Buddhism), semi-literate (or what passed for literacy in those times), superstition driven, narrow folks who may have understood less about the traditions and teachings they were following ... their history and meaning and depth ... than we now know. The conditions for practice within old temples and monasteries might have been less than ideal, many teachers less than ideal, despite our idealization of the old timers. Studying Sutras by smoky oil lamp, living one's days out in Japan or Tibet while having no real information grasp on China and India and the customs of prior centuries, living in a world of rumor and magic and misunderstanding (in which all kinds of myths and stories and superstitions were taken as explanations for how the world works), unable to access a modern Buddhist library, or to "Google" a reliable source (emphasis on making sure it is reliable however!) to check some point, or to ask a real expert outside one's limited circle, being beholden to only one teacher at a time (no matter how poor a teacher), with no knowledge of the human brain and some very important discoveries of science ... and after all that effort ... getting sick and dying at the age of 40 from some ordinary fever. (Can you even imagine trying to listen to Dogen Zenji recite "live" a Shobogenzo teaching from way across the room ... without a modern microphone and PA system and "Youtube" to let one replay it all? I suppose many never heard a word!)

The "Good Old Days" were not necessarily the "Good Old Days".

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?8675-SIT-A-LONG-with-JUNDO-Knocking-Down-Monastery-Walls

None of that is to take away from the very positive aspects of monastic practice, which exist too.

But it is important to remember that monks in the past did receive a "salary" and room and board for the services they performed, namely, ceremonies for donors and for being objects of donation allowing donors to accumulate Karmic "Merit" for a better rebirth. In return, monks got three square meals a day (assuming the donations came in, and even if one meal traditionally was called "medicine").

Gassho, J

[Joyo]

I agree with Jundo, but there go my plans of quitting my day job, becoming a "guru" and soliciting funds. Back to the drawing board, I guess.

Gassho,
Joyo

[Jundo]

Here was my other plan to raise some good cash, from last April ... Still working on it ...

Announcement: Prototype JUKAI/TOKUDO 'DRIVE-THRU' in Japan (next ... Near You!)

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?12152-Announcement-Prototype-JUKAI-TOKUDO-DRIVE-THRU-in-Japan-%28next-Near-You%21%29

Gassho, J

* PS - Be sure to check the date of the post. Some folks got really upset who didn't.

[TimF]

I am a firm believer that a person should be paid for their time spent providing for themself and their family. The 'Protestant' model as Jundo outlined - a 'day' job and conducting other duties on the side - is great for smaller groups, but the churches (Protestant) that I attended in my youth were all congregations in excess of 300, and were ususally all from a community surrounding the church. This meant that between Sunday and Wednesday services, our minister and his assistant were conducting weddings, funerals, visitation to the sick and dying, and other 'troubleshooting' work that the congregation expected. Add to that the administrative work and they were (by my youthful observations) working well into the 60 hour + weeks. As to how much one should make? Well...let me just say that there are more than a handful of clergy out there in TV land who are - in my opinion - just as greedy as some of the worst corporations.

With that being said, I find no problem paying money for a book or video of someone's teachings, as it most likely meant that she/he had to take time out from spending it with family and friends to bring it to our eyes and ears. In some cases, it may have even meant an outlay of cash on their part.

Gassho,
Tim

[Meikyo]

Hi again!

Thank you for all the responses.

I must admit that I have a ambivalent relationship with monasticism.

Training and long retreats in such a setting might very well be a good idea.
But monastic life is a different matter.

While I have great respect for the determination and dedication of full-time monastics I can't help but feel that they in some way (that others might find inconsequential) are left behind . The Practice-world is evolving and changing and they choose to stay put and fight the change from their holy halls. And yet: They are Practicing the essence of Practice. So how can they really be anywhere but at the top? I'm not sure.

Different strokes for different folks I guess.
I'm just glad to be here!

Gassho
Aske

[Biko]

I think it is perfectly fine provided it doesnt veer into "Big Mind" territory. We live in very different times than when the Buddha was wandering the Earth so many of the rules will simply not remain viable. In cultures where Buddhism is the predominant religion is would be much easier for a teacher and sangha to be fully supported by the local community but in the west, not so much. I do have issues with certain Buddhist authors that seem to perpetually publish books rehashing what they have already said or elaborating on one idea ad nauseum for the express purpose of selling books. Every person has one book in them. Few have two.

Gassho,
Jeffrey

[Amelia]

I am grateful for my time and place, for all it's advantages and disadvantages. Thank you all for reminding me. Gassho