Revisiting "Opening the hand of thought"

[alan.r]

I like that a lot, Nindo. Thank you.

Gassho

[Jishin]

Thanks for the teaching Nindo.

Gassho, Jishin

[Kyonin]

Hi Sam,

Like I said in private, in our practice we need to learn how to let go judgements and thoughts.

The more you look for answers and the more you intellectualize stuff, the more stuck you'll get. This will produce the feeling of not going anywhere and you'll end up even more confused because you'll start looking all over the planet for your answers.

But the answers to all your questions are already there. Within you, within Buddha.

Again, just sit in Silence. Stare at the wall and don't cling.

Now about Treeleaf... Please be respectful of our sangha and teacher. It may seem like this is just another Buddhist forum on the Internet, but it's a real a sangha as can be.

As far as I know, Jundo has been answering all your questions kindly and in promptly, even if you tend to repeat the questions. It's just that you don't like the answers.

Gassho,

Kyonin

[shikantazen]

Kyonin and others,

Does being respectful mean keeping my mouth shut despite the fact that I see something wrong that affects me? If so I have done that many times in similar cases before I chose to speak up. Any by speaking up I didn't intend it to be in anyway disrespectful, I only wanted to speak up to help improve the situation for me and for anyone else. I have no fun in disrespecting Jundo. Trust me, I try my best to avoid these kind of argumentative situations.

There are lot of very good senior students (and to be teachers) from whom I got great advice here. When Jundo comes into the thread and says something incorrect (I'll come to what it is), given his weight as a teacher, none of the senior students will try to give advice anymore not wanting to contradict him. I'm losing all that good advice because of Jundo. This has been happening for a while with my threads as well as may be for others.

Now in this thread. I mentioned about a very popular and widely accepted book and method. I needed some help in understanding/putting it to practical use. Which is exactly what Nindo did for me. Jundo instead calls the popular book a cook-book and instead of trying to understand my concern and helping me with the method, he repeats his same old long posts which I have told many times before make no sense to me.

(Infact one of the reasons for my confusion was that Jundo proposes to sit with no object (or with focus on all and nothing). Sitting with no focus/object and trying to wake up from thought is confusing at best. Now he might say it is still an object (focus on all and nothing) but a posture (or breath/sounds etc) is what is considered an object not "all and nothing". Jundo's teacher Nishijima taught about maintaining posture as object and I believe Jundo must have practiced it that way. Now when he teaches why has that been dropped? )

It feels to me as if he is discouraging what I mentioned (despite the fact it is widely accepted method) and is trying to drive me back to what he proposes (sitting with nothing) which has not been very useful to me. What I said works too, why not give me a simple answer that will be helpful to me from wherever I am. If a teacher doesn't understand where the student is and lift him up from there, but tries to repeat what he knows, will it be really useful for the student? Why didn't Jundo do what Nindo did in this thread? Just help and let it go, and not force

You might call it enthusiasm to help or whatever but this getting into every thread first and posting those long posts is really not necessary. It to me is either a form of control or someone who loves to talk a lot. The latter is fine. But the first one is dangerous. I don't like to take anyone's name but does Taigu come into every thread to the level of disturbing? Do you or Alan or Dosho or any other senior students come and try to get into every thread? Why not let the senior students handle, then may be in the end the teacher can simply post/conclude/correct. Or some threads can even be left to be handled by senior students totally. In fact that way we have different perspectives, and one of them might connect to the questioner better.

Jundo is a teacher so we should not say anything. Let us not be so sensitive. Learning from feedback and improving is good for both students as well as teachers. I definitely understand this is a public forum and saying negative about a teacher might affect other students. I will be mindful of that. I'm sure you guys see these too but have the maturity to keep calm unlike me. And I believe you when you say "It's just that you don't like the answers". But there is more to the problem than me not understanding.

Gassho,
Sam

[Jundo]

Hi Sam,

I offer my guidance, others here offer their guidance. We have a certain style we Practice here, and that is what we practice.

It seems you may have misunderstood something I have written to you in my initial post, and I will continue to say to you when you come here.

You can have the posture as an object or focus or reminder (Uchiyama is not wrong, and I would never say so). Go for it! You may have the breath as an object (Suzuki is not wrong, and I would never say so). Same with straightening the spine, the hara, the palm of the hand (Dogen, Nishijima and the others are not wrong). I recommend open, spacious aware for the reasons I stated.

However, no matter which object or focus you pick, also sit beyond subject-object. We sit as an objectless-object, in which sitting itself hits the spot. I will not repeat my messages, but quote again what Nindo wrote:

So, don't make the posture an object. If you think about it as an object, you will create the same separation as before; you will keep constantly checking yourself.
Read the part again about flesh and bones. You need to embody the posture, you need to embody the Buddha. Let the posture own you and hand over control ("entrust everything to the correct zazen posture").

And, never forget, sit as the sitting (and the posture, the breath, whatever) as beyond all attaining, as hitting the mark itself.

Gassho, Jundo

[Jishin]

Hi Sam,

I been reading a book on the Heart Sutra by Red Pine at Jundo's suggestion. Nindo's "Now it makes sense!" is all over the place inside this book at this particular juncture for me. Have you read it? Good stuff.

Gassho, Jishin

[Anshu Bryson]

Dear Sam,

Hopefully Jundo's last post was able to clarify things a little. I don't see anywhere that he has given you 'wrong' information; as far as I can gather from what I have read and from what I have been taught, all of the teachers discussed in this thread, whether Dogen himself, Uchiyama, Suziki, Nishijima, etc., speak about one or another way to focus thoughts initially, but that we should ultimately let that fall away. This is all that is being reflected in Jundo's comments.


As far as the forum etiquette is concerned, the forum is here for us to learn. It isn't a 'discussion forum' as such, although we do of course 'discuss' things in here. Rather than being a more usual internet 'open forum', it is more specifically Jundo's teaching medium. So, for me (and I could well be wrong), it doesn't really lend itself to the sort of debate that might occur on an open forum. That doesn't preclude questioning; far from it. But we should all be guided by the use of "gentle speech" that Taigu talks about in one of the introductory videos. My personal rule of thumb for online communications is to try to conduct myself in the same manner that I would if I was sitting across the table from the person I am talking to. Maybe its just me, but to ask the teacher not to teach, and particularly not to teach in his own manner and style, would seem to me to be an unusual learning strategy...

That said, now that you have found your point of focus, and are able to bring back the thoughts to the present, the most important thing to do is to 'just sit', and NOT to focus constantly on posture, or breath, etc. Which is all Jundo is saying... Having correct posture infers that you don't have to focus on having correct posture, if that makes an sense...

Metta to you,

Gassho,

Bryson

[Diarmuid1]

Hi Sam
Did Jundo call the book a cookbook? I couldn't see this, but I know that our minds play many tricks on us!

If I understand correctly, your original questions were, "Am I in the right direction? Is my understanding correct?"

Who can answer those questions? You know all of the answers already. Perhaps sometimes the answer is, "It's confusing!"

In your most recent post, you talk a lot about how you feel, how you see it. But remember what is true: the mind plays a lot of tricks on us. Perhaps how you feel is not how it is; perhaps how you see it is not as it is.

For what it's worth, I'd advise accepting all answers, however long, however short. The truth will be in there somewhere. And if it is not, at least you know where it will be.

[Myosha]

Hello,

Mindful of something read four years ago, it . . . no, wait . . . read this morning:

Attachment is the breath of delusion.
It neither knows nor could it know truth.
The white cherry flowers know more (and less).
Using neither sightless eyes nor hearless ears . . . .
P. Jalesh

. . . outside the scriptures,
not based on words or letters,
directly pointing
to the heart
of reality
- Bodhidharma




Myosha

[Jundo]

Hey, I found a Zen Guy even more wordy and long winded than me! Koun Ejo Zenji, Dogen's successor and right hand man. He left us one piece with his vision of Zazen, worth the trip through. I post the link here as it connects a bit, an old Teacher's voice on sitting Shikantaza.

No mention of posture in there **, but much much about the mental attitude, wholeness, hitting the luminous goal by goallessness. Possibly some mention of the breath ... but the references to the breath are far beyond merely breathing in or out, and becomes the breathing in and out of the whole universe and then some ... Buddha Breathing.

** (just because there is no mention does not mean that monks did not sit with good posture or return to it by the way. Nothing wrong with doing so so long as one realizes that is a small part of the whole Zafu voyage to right here)

A bit long even in the short version I post, but worth the effort.

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?12824-KOMYOZO-ZANMAI-%28Samadhi-of-the-Treasury-of-Light%29

Gassho, J

[Joyo]

Hello,

Mindful of something read four years ago, it . . . oh, wait . . . this morning:

Attachment is the breath of delusion.
It neither knows nor could it know truth.
The white cherry flowers know more (and less).
Using neither sightless eyes nor hearless ears . . . .
P. Jalesh

. . . outside the scriptures,
not based on words or letters,
directly pointing
to the heart
of reality
- Bodhidharma




Myosha

This is awesome!!

Gassho,
Joyo

[Yugen]

Revisiting "Opening the hand of thought"

I'm rather late to this conversation so please accept my apologies for being late to this important discussion. What follows are my opinions alone as a human being and very deluded practitioner.

I don't see any disrespect in Sam's communications - I do see an earnest attempt to understand and clarify teachings that are offered here. There's been more than one time I struggle with the teachings and apparent contradictions or allegories and metaphors. My style in person is to be very intellectual and incisive to the point of being perceived as intimidating or disrespectful. This is why this practice and this Zendo is the right place for me.

It is helpful for me to sit with paradox, not contradiction.

Zazen for me is using the alignment of my head and pelvis, legs, like the roots and crown of a tree to connect heaven and earth.

I live by Uchiyama's description of clouds and a blue sky to describe my mind's dialogue and the openness that underlies it - the spaciousness and wonder that is within us.....

Jundo has a certain teaching style. Repetition is a central characteristic of zen teaching, of martial arts teaching.... The most gifted violinists and pianists start their practice by working on and repeating scales....

I understand and admire the desire of students to protect and defend their teacher. There is nothing to protect. There is nothing to defend. I too often am frustrated by all the discussion board type activity as compared to earnest practice and siting. There are cases of dialogue where earnest seeking and asking of questions can become terse.... I believe the intent here is not discursive.... I believe intellectual honesty is very important to Sam. My view is that our path is not solely an intellectual one. Focusing on forensic dialogue can only reveal part of the path, a small one. But styles of communication are important and what I think we are experiencing here is an exploration into a style that works for Sam. It may not be found here at Treeleaf with Jundo - it may be with other practice colleagues or Sangha members or another style. It may not be that Shikantaza is the right format. it may be that with practice Sam will settle in and feel more comfortable. Maybe not.

But let's not discourage the exploration. I don't see or interpret any disrespect, I see an earnest desire to understand. It is fair to point out the direction and emphasis of our practice, and it's part of the tradition of hospitality to all who journey that we offer a zafu, some sustenance, and listen. Sam may continue on his journey and we wi wish him fair winds, and he may decide to travel with our merry band for a bit, or join the community and become part of our tapestry.

Thank you everyone for your wisdom.

Deep bows
Yugen


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Heishu]

Hello Yugen and also to Sam,

Yugen, such wonderful words to express the truth of practice, thank you for this. Many different paths, many different ways to teach, many people searching for the truth. One truth that I like is that of respect, respect for oneself and respect for others. It was not so much to me that Sam was disrespectful of Jundo, as much as, Sam was frustrated with Jundo's ways of teaching. My comment to Sam was not meant as a rebuke but a simple look at how I personally view and respect the teachings of Jundo and the value of this sangha. There are many people here at this sangha and certainly many different thoughts and personalities as well. That is the beauty of this place.

Sam, I wish you the best and I hope that the answers you seek will come to you. You seem to have an immense hunger for the truth of this practice and I hope you find it. This thread that you began concerning the teachings from the book, "Opening the hand of thought" is but another example of why Treeleaf is a good place to practice. Yes, I got a bit sidetracked by my reaction, to your reaction of Jundo's ways but I continue to learn even during a twist in the path of this thread. Sam, I apologize for interrupting this thread with my reaction to your personal thoughts.

Gassho,
Heishu

[Nindo]

Well said, Yugen, thank you.