Zendo difficulties

[Jundo]

Okay, tonight in the zendo was at the same time worse and better. Worse : my first zazen began quietly, with a bit of the usual anxiety, but all of a sudden i began to HATE everything. Just pure hate coming out of who knows what. I hated being here, i hated the noise, i hated the people, i hated my life, i hated the bell that was not ringing, i hated time not passing, i hated it ALL. I don't think i've ever felt so much hate in my life. It was quite difficult because for a moment i wondered if i was not some kind of sociopath, ahahah. Again this is something that never happened to me while practicing alone. But oh well, it passed and left a more quietous space in which i wondered how i could hate such a beautiful sound as the rain falling on the windows. Was quite interesting in a way to see that i could be in such a place.

Second zazen was more relaxed and filled with smiling faces made of the drippings of the badly painted white wall. It was better, kind of, even if a bit disturbing. At least i had a bit of fun.

Maybe one day all will be "normal", i hope. I still end up quite tired.

If this kind of extreme emotional reaction just happens once in awhile ... and MOST IMPORTANTLY! so long as you do not act on the hate and punch out the Teacher or shoot up the Sangha with a semi-automatic ... it is nothing to be concerned about. More of the mind theatre at work, and which you seem to be prone to experience for some reason in these settings. Just recognize the theatre scene as theatre, and let it pass away.

The quiet after the storm which seems to have followed seems much better to me.

Did you read this wonderful article on Zazen?

http://hazymoon.com/articles/the-art-of-zazen/

Gassho, J

[Ugrok]

Thanks Jundo ! Yes, it is "fleeting", and i totally see it and so am able not to act on it. Still a bit scary though. But it did lead to one "insight" : there really is no point in trying to "fix" stuff during zazen. I clearly saw that, for example, "trying" to relax is just stupid : you relax, but then it gets tense again, then you relax it again... What's the point ? That's tiring for nothing. Better is to let things go their way, which takes trust, but in the end is more... relaxing. I kind of found the point in which you just let things do their things without really caring if it's good or not.
But isn't it dangerous if we begin to think like that in life ? It's as if on one hand, we know we don't have control on stuff, but on the other hand, if we care about the world we should try to do stuff in it. Can we do without "trying to do" ?

Damn i'm all entangled again !

PS : i read the article. It's great !

[Jundo]

Thanks Jundo ! Yes, it is "fleeting", and i totally see it and so am able not to act on it. Still a bit scary though. But it did lead to one "insight" : there really is no point in trying to "fix" stuff during zazen. I clearly saw that, for example, "trying" to relax is just stupid : you relax, but then it gets tense again, then you relax it again... What's the point ? That's tiring for nothing. Better is to let things go their way, which takes trust, but in the end is more... relaxing. I kind of found the point in which you just let things do their things without really caring if it's good or not.

Good. Nothing is more Relaxing than to give up fighting and struggling with the world ... including giving up the fight and struggle to relax!

But isn't it dangerous if we begin to think like that in life ? It's as if on one hand, we know we don't have control on stuff, but on the other hand, if we care about the world we should try to do stuff in it. Can we do without "trying to do" ?

I often say that Zen Practice allows us to live and see life two ways at once, as one ... like seeing one way out of the left eye, one way out of the right eye, with both combined as one the Clear Vision of a Buddha Eye.

We drop all judgments, goals and need to fix while ... simultaneously in another part of ourself ... we have the judgments we need to live in life, the goals worthy of working for, and fix the bad stuff about us and the world in need of fixing. We give up the fight and fight on at once!

One can come to experience life both these ways At Once As One. How? Practice!

Gassho, J

[delphizealot]

One thing I've noticed is that when I worry less about whether I'm doing things right, I'm more effective at what I'm doing. I don't know if you've ever tried juggling, but once you've found the knack, the juggling almost takes care of itself. Sometimes, though, I start to think "wow, I'm getting good at this"; that's the moment when the balls come crashing down. This practice is like that; I fall down, over and over, then find the rhythm again of effortless efforts. Eventually, even the falling down and returning becomes its own kind of rhythm and the effort of returning to the effortless itself becomes effortless. Then I think "wow, this is effortless" and well, you know what happens...

The art of successful failure is to let every stumble be the shifting of weight that leads naturally to the next step. Every breath out flows naturally to the next breath in. Zazen is just this.

-Dan
Sat (and stumbled) today

[Jundo]

One thing I've noticed is that when I worry less about whether I'm doing things right, I'm more effective at what I'm doing. I don't know if you've ever tried juggling, but once you've found the knack, the juggling almost takes care of itself. Sometimes, though, I start to think "wow, I'm getting good at this"; that's the moment when the balls come crashing down. This practice is like that; I fall down, over and over, then find the rhythm again of effortless efforts. Eventually, even the falling down and returning becomes its own kind of rhythm and the effort of returning to the effortless itself becomes effortless. Then I think "wow, this is effortless" and well, you know what happens...

The art of successful failure is to let every stumble be the shifting of weight that leads naturally to the next step. Every breath out flows naturally to the next breath in. Zazen is just this.

-Dan
Sat (and stumbled) today

Yes, many folks compare arts such as juggling to Zazen, and many other arts where one just relaxes, settles in and lets it flow.

Did you see this fellow walk across a tightrope across the Chicago skyline yesterday, blindfolded. Zazen. And he keeps a whole conversation going through it too! (I love when he looks down and comments, "Gee, that's a long way down!" )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHLLYIUbfB8

Gassho, J

[delphizealot]

Crazy. Sometimes I feel like Wile E Coyote, who runs off the cliff after the roadrunner and doesn't even realize there's no longer any ground underneath his feet...until he looks down.

wile-e-coyote.gif
Zazen is like tightrope walking, only there's not even a tightrope.

-Dan
Sat (and looked down!) today

[Byokan]

The art of successful failure is to let every stumble be the shifting of weight that leads naturally to the next step. Every breath out flows naturally to the next breath in. Zazen is just this.

YES!

Gassho
Lisa
sat today

[Shinzan]

Ugrok, thanks so much for following on with your efforts and sharing your experience here. Working with the tough stuff, that's it. There are likely others like me, who don't have the courage and words to bring out the tough stuff.

_/\_ Shinzan

[Ugrok]

Well, you're welcome... I'm kinda torn apart, because i begin to fear going to the zendo tomorrow. I mean, i know that i will struggle and feel bad, and i begin to question myself about it seriously : why go there if it is to feel bad ? Life is short ! Basically, my mind is making up excuses to not go, and at the same time i don't know what to do, follow that instinct or not... I could do positive things during that time, in which i feel good, like going to my aikido class. Don't know what i will choose.

Gassho
Ugrok,
Sat today with a hangover

[Dosho]

Ugrok,

As someone who has struggled with anxiety of many types, I can relate to all of your posts. And when I began to sit zazen I had days like you describe where I go around in circles. All I can say is that over time much of that has fallen away, but it is never easy.

In one of your posts you mention that you can't leave when sitting zazen with the group. May I ask why not? If I was told I could not leave that would certainly make me feel trapped and my monkey brain would go crazy. Are you sure it is not allowed? I wouldn't suggest that you leave every time a thought comes to your mind, but is it possible that the only one saying you cannot leave is you? And forgive me if I missed you describing this in detail.

In any case, sit when you can for as long as you feel able. To do otherwise can be counterproductive, at least I think so.

Gassho,
Dosho

Sat today

[Ugrok]

Actually, nobody ever told me that i could not stand up and leave... But when i sit there, i just cannot see me doing this, ahah ! I'm a bit stupid with this... I don't allow myself to do it.

Thank you for pointing that out.

Gassho,

Ugrok
Sat today

[Jamen]

I can relate as I have sat with repetitive anxieties emerging uncontrollably. I once called them “intrusive thoughts” because they were uninvited and I wished for them to go away. In a sense, my resistance gave them some degree of authority. Labeling them “intrusive” did not really help either. I then ran across some writing sponsored by Suzuki or Uchiyama that said (paraphrasing here from memory) the negative thoughts that keep emerging during zazen are getting worn down over time. This concept spoke to me because I realized the significance of consistently and repetitively experiencing the thoughts and then returning to zazen the best I could, especially when the thoughts eventually got “worn down” and left and this was affirmed. If the issue is biologically driven like social anxiety disorder or something similar then I think that’s an altogether different problem/solution that often requires additional assistance.

[Jishin]

I can relate as I have sat with repetitive anxieties emerging uncontrollably. I once called them “intrusive thoughts” because they were uninvited and I wished for them to go away. In a sense, my resistance gave them some degree of authority. Labeling them “intrusive” did not really help either. I then ran across some writing sponsored by Suzuki or Uchiyama that said (paraphrasing here from memory) the negative thoughts that keep emerging during zazen are getting worn down over time. This concept spoke to me because I realized the significance of consistently and repetitively experiencing the thoughts and then returning to zazen the best I could, especially when the thoughts eventually got “worn down” and left and this was affirmed. If the issue is biologically driven like social anxiety disorder or something similar then I think that’s an altogether different problem/solution that often requires additional assistance.

Hello,

Sitting with whatever comes and goes is relatively easy for me. Off the cushion is another story. When I can't go with the flow because of very bothersome intrusive thoughts I try to pick a worthless word such as Coca Cola, Cowabanga, Chilax, or (pick your favorite worthless word) and replace the thought with such words. Although the thoughts still arise, the negative emotions associated with the thought go away. In due time so does the thought. This technique works even better for me when I repeat the worthless word in my mind when I am not having intrusive thoughts so that my mind associates the worthless word as neither good or bad. Some folks like to pick worthless words like No! or repeat stuff like Gate Gate, Paragate, Parasamgate, Bod...

That's my practice and I am sticking to it.

Gassho, Jishin

#SatToday

[Jamen]

Hello,

Sitting with whatever comes and goes is relatively easy for me. Off the cushion is another story. When I can't go with the flow because of very bothersome intrusive thoughts I try to pick a worthless word such as Coca Cola, Cowabanga, Chilax, or (pick your favorite worthless word) and replace the thought with such words. Although the thoughts still arise, the negative emotions associated with the thought go away. In due time so does the thought. This technique works even better for me when I repeat the worthless word in my mind when I am not having intrusive thoughts so that my mind associates the worthless word as neither good or bad. Some folks like to pick worthless words like No! or repeat stuff like Gate Gate, Paragate, Parasamgate, Bod...

That's my practice and I am sticking to it.

Gassho, Jishin

#SatToday

I have to agree with you there. The real challenge for me is also off the mat. I have never tried the word technique myself but I might have to give it a shot. When I'm feeling some irritability rise I usually go to my breath almost involuntarily at times...but other times there is a delay and I have to catch myself and assert focused breathing. The question is how long do I entertain the irritable feeling before I bring my mind back to the body with my breath.