Zendo difficulties

**Steven** · 10-13-2014, 08:27 PM

If you are not having an all out panic attack, then it sounds like an excellent opportunity for practice! Do they have other less formal times that you can go to practice, such as a weeknight sitting group or something? That might be a better way to ease yourself into it.

Gassho,
Steven

**Ugrok** · 10-13-2014, 08:35 PM

Nah, i'm not having a panic attack ; i sort of know this is just bullshit and let it pass, but i still can't relax and end up exhausted because my body is all tense and i suffer a lot. Their sittings are always the same : 40 mins zazen, 10 mins kihin, 40 mins zazen, chanting.

What is frustrating is that when i'm alone, again, zazen is so cool and relaxed compared to this !

I don't know if i should struggle again and again with this and keep on fighting, or just do something else with my time...

Gassho,

Ugrok

**delphizealot** · 10-13-2014, 08:44 PM

I know the feeling. The worst for me was allergy season when I spent the whole sit trying to keep breathing without distracting everyone around me with my constant sniffling sounds. Quiet sniffling can sound so LOUD in zazen. I think most of us get in the habit of putting on additional layers when we interact with other people. When others are watching, we feel like we have to watch how we present ourselves and worry about how we will be perceived.

I think that's why in the zendo, they encourage us beginners to face the wall. We're looking inward, not outward, but eventually that opens up and the distinction is dropped. Then we're all just sitting alone together in the reality of the situation. Usually though it's the same old worries, tensions, frustrations, anxieties, joys, hopes, depressions, suppressed coughs, quiet coughs, tilts, wobbles, and on and on. So, I don't think what you're feeling is unusual. I'm starting over again myself and feel much the same anxiety. So I just sit with it. Anxiously, at least until the label falls off the can and I realize there's no soup inside.

**delphizealot** · 10-13-2014, 08:52 PM

Also, I don't know the rules at your zendo, but the center I attended allowed folks to enter the zendo starting at the second sitting (immediately after kinhin) if they didn't feel up to the entire session. The long sits can definitely seem harder, especially if you go to sesshin; talk about being bored out of my mind (though that's somewhat the point.

)

-Dan

**Ugrok** · 10-13-2014, 09:09 PM

Thanks for your kind words, it's -oh selfish me - good to hear that i'm not alone in that boat, ahah !

Nah, i don't think i can enter at the second sitting (i did not ask, though). Anyway, for me, the second sitting is easier than the first, for some mysterious reason. But indeed, it is long, especially since i practice in full lotus, which gives me no pain when practicing home for 20-30 minutes, but is becoming quite difficult beyond that point. Maybe i should experiment with other postures for the zendo, even if i don't like the feeling of those...

What i would love would be an "open" zendo, in which i could go whenever i wanted and practice freely - with others or not - instead of practicing at my own place. That would be great !

I can't help but feel some deep respect for people going into sesshin. I don't know if i could.

**delphizealot** · 10-13-2014, 09:32 PM

Personally, I was only (somewhat) comfortable in the long sessions when I sat seiza. I used the zafu rather than the bench, though, as I was too embarrassed to take one out (silly, right?) I definitely had issues with pain in the legs, as well as tension in the back and spasms in the muscles after the first 30 minutes or so, but it did get better with practice. Zazen isn't really relaxing or easy, but it's not really frustrating or hard, either; it just is what it is. Longer sittings seem harder, but can also help open up more space in time to get past the seeming into the essential. I wouldn't take what I say too seriously though, as I've essentially spent the last several years feigning a semblance of not paying attention.

- Dan

**Kyonin** · 10-13-2014, 10:00 PM

Hi Ugrok,

It seems to me you think too much when you are in a group and are very concerned of the whole experience. This creates anxiety and over thinking the whole thing.

I'm not an expert, but it could be useful if you go and sit zazen at a public space. And by that I mean to sit zazen while you are sitting at a coffee shop having coffee or sitting in a park bench. Just sit like anyone would do and do zazen. You'll be surrounded with people and you can see if it's regular people or the ones on the zendo who make you anxious.

See how you feel. If anxiety arises, just acknowledge but don't comment on it, just let it pass. It's hard, I know, but doable. You just have to be mindful of the experience dropping judgements.

I think that with practice and time, you'll eventually be able to get back to the group and kick everyone's arse... er... scratch that... you'll eventually be able to sit with them with no anxiety at all.

But that's just an idea.

Gassho,

Kyonin

**Ugrok** · 10-13-2014, 10:36 PM

Thanks for the advice, Kyonin !

Thing is, i do this all the time ! I sit in parks, i sit on benchs in the street, i even sit in churchs, i sit in my local library, etc... I love it and have no problem doing this as long as no one knows what i am doing and that i am free of stopping whenever i want. Thanks for pointing that out, it did not cross my mind. It seems to me that i put a lot of pressure on myself with sitting in the zendo, with experienced practicioners (i mean, it's ridiculous : i am even anxious hours before going to the zendo !). Maybe because i think i HAVE TO DO IT RIGHT since we're in a zendo, we cannot leave, people around me know how to do it right, things have to be done right... It's a lot of pressure, now that i think about it. The only fact that i cannot get up and leave if i want to is quite difficult to accept. I know that, in my life, a lot of pressure and anxiety comes from the fear of not being capable of doing stuff and being badly judged as a consequence of this ; i was like this in school when i was a kid. Don't know if i should force myself to go through this or not. I love sitting zazen and i would love to be able to do it "normally" with other people. I'm at a point in my day to day, alone practice, where i feel the need to stop just doing this for myself and do it with others.

Thanks for the idea.

Gassho,

Ugrok

**Jishin** · 10-13-2014, 10:55 PM

Ugrok,

Social anxiety is very common and about 8% of the population has it. There is variability in the degree of impairment it causes. Zazen has helped quite a bit in addressing my own difficulties with social anxiety.

Gassho, Jishin

**Ugrok** · 10-13-2014, 11:09 PM

Hi Jishin,

Yeah, i know about that. I don't think i have "social anxiety". I practice aikido a lot, i have friends, i don't fear people at all - i love most of the people i meet. It's really about certain situations more than people, i guess. In general, situations in which i feel i have to do right, and in which i feel kind of "stuck" or forced to do stuff right without any choice. Of course, it has to do with how the people here look at me, but only in certain situations. When i mess up completely in aikido, in front of everyone, i just laugh like everyone else and have no problem with that. For some reason, it seems i cannot have that perspective in the zendo ! It all seems so serious and rigid... It reminds me of another situation which is giving talks (i have to do that often in my work). Except that when giving talks, i feel anxious, but it fades away as soon as i begin speaking ; and i love doing it. While doing zazen with others, i'm just stuck with my own created and irrational anxiety and can't do anything with it. But oh well, i did not die, and i think i'll try to keep sitting with it in the zendo and see where it leads.

**Nindo** · 10-14-2014, 02:10 AM

Have you ever tried sitting the Zazenkai live with the webcam on, or on one of the Google+ meetups that TL members have? Maybe that would be an in-between thing, not alone yet not physically in a group? Just wondering.

**Jundo** · 10-14-2014, 02:25 AM

"damn i'm so anxious. Man you know it's just bullshit. Just let go. Ok follow your outbreath. Aaaaaaaah. Damn i feel like i'm falling what is that ! Oh my god i'm so tense again ! Relax man, just relax, it's nonsense. Why are you putting yourself through this ? Damn i feel so bad, i thought my practice was okay but i'm totally unable to relax. Ah there it goes, just let go. Damn i feel spaced out what is that" ... people around me know how to do it right, things have to be done right... It's a lot of pressure

Hi Ugrok,

Well, this is your Koan. Where does this anxiety lie (or whatever it is) as you describe, and who imposes such on you?? (My too simple answer: Mostly between your ears, and you do. YOU are exhausting yourself!). A lot of thoughts and judgments above of your own making. That does not mean that the sensations you are feeling are not terrible and real to you, and that does not mean that there is not some condition which is causing them. It simply means that, from a Buddhist perspective, we try to recognize all these thoughts and emotions as a kind of "mind theatre", and not buy into them.

Here is some information on the "Mind Theatre" and our "Nurturing Seeds" Practice to try to replant these seeds of thoughts and emotions with more healthful ones.

RECOMMENDED DAILY Nurturing Seeds PRACTICE

RECOMMENDED DAILY Nurturing Seeds PRACTICE - Treeleaf Zendo

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?6540-RECOMMENDED-DAILY-Nurturing-Seeds-PRACTICE

Hi, Sometimes the simplest of practices can be most effective. The following is based on teachings by Thich Nhat Hahn as well as many others. It's roots stretch back to the very origins of Buddhism. It is a simple and common sense approach to changing how we think and feel ... realizing that our experience of life is always

Now, that being said, anxiety is very real (I am not sure that is what you are describing but believe me, I know first hand, and struggled for years with shyness in groups and other kinds of anxiety. Not so much now, thanks in large part to this wonderful Zen Path). We have had some threads before about folks wrestling with anxiety, which may be a bit different, but the advice applies too (I will post part at the bottom of this message, just change the subject to what you are feeling and same advice applies, whatever it is that is causing tension and exhaustion in the face of the Zendo procedures and ritual) ... A Message for All Folks: DO get some help if seriously interfering with life from a professional in overcoming social or other anxiety, depression or other conditions like it, which help can go hand-in-hand with your Shikantaza Practice.

As I describe below: (1) Feeling something negative and, (2), pouring gasoline on the situation by flogging yourself for feeling that, are not the same. Just Sit As What Is.

Gassho, Jundo

PS

What i would love would be an "open" zendo, in which i could go whenever i wanted and practice freely - with others or not - instead of practicing at my own place. That would be great !

Well, I believe that when you came to Treeleaf you might have found such a place!

---------

(THE FOLLOWING IS ABOUT "PANIC DISORDER", BUT APPLIES TO EQUIVALENT SITUATIONS TOO)

I would say that if a "panic attack" happens once in awhile, and is not (however unpleasant) severely threatening or interfering with your life, you may wish to just let it pass as you describe. As you wrote:

I'm sitting there, letting it do it's thing, being curious and gentle with myself, and it.... wanes after about 5 minutes. Amazing. My heard it still racing, the adrenaline is still shaking me, but my head is wrapped around 'it.' I get back up, reset the timer, and sit back down. I get up after my 30, a little shaken, and resume my day as normal.

If it happens during a sitting, we sit with it ... breathe through it ... or break off the sitting if too much. All of that is Shikantaza.

We all suffer episodes of panic from time to time. Your being in a life transition now is a time of great stress, insecurity and worry. However, if the panic is to the point of being seriously interfering with life, you may wish to seek professional attention for it. Below is what I usually say:

...

Even if not persistent and disabling "panic attacks" like some of the folks here, almost all of us can speak of times of fear and anxiety and cold sweat ... sometimes great anxiety and "what if's" flooding the head. That is natural, human, hard wired into our animal brains.

As some have said above, when feeling panic, just feel panic. Let it be, it is just what is in that moment.

Try to recall, if you can in the heat of things, that it is merely the staging of mind created theatre that is happening in that moment ... a show on a theatre stage your head is writing ... and just feel panic if panic there is. When in panic, be a Panic-Buddha. When in Panic ... Just Panic Panic Panic!

There is a difference between (1) feeling panic, just letting the panic move through you, accepting that that is how one feels in that moment, and (2) feeling panic, and then adding self-loathing, "wish it were not so" thoughts, resistance, "this is the way it will always be, no escape from this black hole" thoughts, and the like on top of the panic. The latter are extraneous, more fuel poured on the fire. Remove the resistance and the fire itself may lose much of its heat.

If you just accept that your heart is beating 200 beats a minute ... and just allow that fact, relax into it ... good chance the beats will slow down.

As in Ai-ki-do (my wife's a practitioner) ... sometimes we conquer by yielding and letting an attack move past, not by directly resisting head on.

Anyway, that is how I seek to experience the little "theatre scenes" of fear ... and all the other "junk in the attic" of the head like glumness, depression, anger, worry and the like that naturally arise in any human mind. These too shall pass ... open the grip of thoughts and emotions in the head, and they will fall away.

(I do not wish to contradict any expert advice by true specialists on Panic disorders, however. So, do what they advice first.) But the following is my typical response to someone sitting Zazen together with some other issues requiring outside counseling or medication ...

Our emphasis here is on Shikantaza ... which may be said to be "being one" with what ails one, although not necessarily a cure for what ails one. HOWEVER, that "being one" with life ... can relieve much suffering in life. It is a strange thing ... we do not sit Shikantaza to be "better" or to make life "other than as it is" ...

... Yet, in the very stillness of letting life be "as is it" and embracing all of life ... and in dropping the hard borders and divisions between our "self" and the world ... this practice does thereby leave almost all people better ... and often does work an effective cure (or is one helpful part of the cure) ... from depression, stress, addiction, compulsive disorders, eating disorders, anger issues, self loathing ... you name it.

We do emphasize mindfulness of our thoughts and emotions ... but not as a form of meditation. However, our Zazen is the radical non-doing of Shikantaza, and the "mind theatre" and tricks and games of the human mind is something that naturally we also become better able to recognize and avoid from sitting.

... I suspect that Shikantaza ... in its quietness, in the total stillness and acceptance ... would be something helpful with what you describe ...

Zazen is -NOT- a cure for many things ... it will not fix a bad tooth (just allow you to be present with the toothache ... you had better see a dentist, not a Zen teacher), cure cancer (although it may have some healthful effects and make one more attune to the process of chemotherapy and/or dying), etc. Zen practice will not cure your acne on your face, or fix your flat tire. All it will do is let one "be at one, and whole" ... TRULY ONE ... with one's pimples and punctured wheel, accepting and embracing of each, WHOLLY WHOLE with/as each one. There are many psychological problems or psycho/medical problems such as alcoholism that may require other therapies, although Zen can be part of a 12-Step program or such (a few Zen teachers in America with a drinking problem had to seek outside help). My feeling is that some things are probably best handled by medical, psychological or psychiatric treatment, not Zen teachers.

My feeling is that receiving outside treatment, medication AND "just sitting" can all work together.

Walking this path long enough ... we will also come to places where there is NO FEAR at all, no one to be afraid and no object of fear. There is a realm beyond any possible place to fall or be lost. If anyone has been walking this path long enough, they will have some familiarity with such Fearless Place. Have no doubt.

Of course, that does not mean that, in this life, we will always be free of fear for it is hardwired into our little brains. If I see a hungry tiger in my path, I may break into a sweat and run for the hills!

But a funny thing that can result is an experience of feeling fear ... while being totally free of any fear ... ALL AT ONCE. Fear and fearlessness, as one. Most folks who have been on this Zen road for awhile will have an understanding of what I mean by that.

Gassho, J

**Ugrok** · 10-14-2014, 08:58 AM

Thanks, Jundo !

I agree with what you wrote here. I suffered from anxiety a long time and not so much nowadays, thanks to zazen and therapy, and i know and read a lot about those issues. What you are saying is spot on in my opinion. But even if things are far better than what they were a few years ago there are situations which are still problematic. This is also why i want to go and confront them, to see what happens.

What is really funny is that when the anxiety is strong, like it was yesterday in the zendo, we really get caught in it ; but there were a few times where i could just see that "hey man, you're not practicing right now, you're just letting yourself being led by your thoughts / emotions !" and i could return for a very brief moment to spacious awareness. But i got caught again and again in thought / emotion. It seems that the stronger the emotion, the harder it is to see it as just a mind play. The stronger the emotion, the stronger we believe in it ! And you also feel it in your body in not so nice ways, so it's really hard to acknowledge that this is just a play. So maybe it is, indeed, a great opportunity to practice and also to learn to be ok with difficult body sensations. But at the same time i can't help but feel a bit disappointed about myself, i really thought it would be easier to return to the zendo since nowadays i tend to do good in situations that were difficult in the past, and, well, it is not easy. It's also surprising to see that zazen is great when alone, and a bit of a little torture with others. So conditioned !

Thanks Nindo for the suggestion, i should try that, but often the hours don't match !

**Yahantei** · 10-14-2014, 09:39 AM

Thank you Jundo, for that lovely post. I could not agree more.

I have always had difficulty with my beliefs about "belonging" - whether it was among colleagues, new friends, or school. I am perceived as very friendly and outgoing, but always beneath the surface was the idea that I was being judged on how I looked, dressed, spoke, and behaved. In my experience, this comes up much more strongly than usual in the Sangha, because we are placed in a situation of extended silence. We have a tendency, I think, to distract ourselves from each other in regular social situations. There is a kind of intimacy in collective sitting that is very confronting - and also very healing.

I am in a foreign country on exchange at the moment, and practicing with the local group here was very frightening for me. Every Zendo has little idiosyncrasies so you are inevitably going to do something improperly. Ugrok, I felt very similar to you sitting there in a brand new city, with people I had met only minutes ago! I could feel my thumbs jamming together and my back attempting to knot itself into a pretzel. I nearly laughed out loud when I realized that I was creating little imaginary puppets of these poor people in my head, attributing to them all sorts of judgments about me that they likely did not have. It is hilarious when we become aware that what we believe others think about us is almost always wrong.

I would urge you to let go of your idea of being too caught up in this stress to sit properly. My rule is that as long as I am sitting properly and have made an honest vow to return my mind to my breath if I find it attaching itself too strongly to the ideas floating by, then I have practiced. There is absolutely something to be learned when we sit in a state of anxiety and struggle the whole time not to wander away with our thoughts.

And the group I am sitting with now? I feel perfectly comfortable practicing Oryoki with them (which really is the true test of intimacy). There's nothing like a bunch of people quietly watching you eat to break down the barriers we seem to have erected in our societies.

I have every faith that your sitting in the Zendo will become less anxious and you will start to miss the discomfort!

Bows and bows,

Yahantei

Zendo difficulties

Zendo difficulties

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