Question on chanting, maybe to the Inos, and others

[Jika]

Dear all,

sorry if this has been discussed - the search functions says "ino" is too short to be a search term...

Having seen Kyonin and Dosho interact, and Jundo and Shingen (today, for me), I am curious about the work of the Ino.

How does he know what to do when, and what is the meaning for what the priest is doing?

Maybe ceremony is just ceremony, and the inkin is a nice instrument, but as Zen has so many symbols, I thought it might well be interesting to ask?

Why does the bell sometimes go faster?
Why is it sometimes muted? (or is it hit elsewhere, this wooden "clonk" sound?)

Another practical question: I am reciting (since shortly before Ango, but one of my commitments to stick with it) the Heart Sutra every morning.
Are there rules where to breathe?
Breathing always gets me out of the beat (well, beat without beat...), especially with the long-worded German version.

I've read somewhere the Heart Sutra should be chanted on one breath - is this possible in Japanese?
So should one use as few breaths as possible or take short breaths at one's ease?

Thank you very much.

Gassho,
Danny

[Daiyo]

Thanks for your questions Danny. I am also interested in knowing the meaning and parts of the zazenkai ceremony.


Gassho,
Walter.

[Jundo]

Hi Danny,

Years ago, I asked an older Japanese Zen Monk why certain bells were rung the way they were in the monastery. He was silent for a moment, then said, "They are rung that way because that is how we ring the bells".

The Doan (堂行) is the traditional ringer of bells and gongs in a Zen monastery. The Ino (維那) actually had a much wider role in training monks in a traditional monastery, but in the West the term has come to be used for the lead Chanter.

There are traditional scripts for ceremonies, the main one being the "Gyoji Kihan" in the Japanese Soto Tradition. It spells out the content, and what drum and bell is struck when, for dozens and dozens of ceremonies and rituals. Here is the table of contents of the official English translation.

http://scbs.stanford.edu/sztp3/translations/gyoji_kihan/GJKH_vol1_contents.pdf

You can see an example of an intricate ceremony here. However, most of our ceremonies here at Treeleaf are obviously much smaller, simpler, less elaborate and, yes, far less elegant than that. I tend to modernize and simplify, and be less formal and fastidious about things. I am also something of a klutz (is that also a German word?), and precise ceremony is not my strong talent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBF2q0p9pdg#t=440

(If you are curious about what that long ceremony contains, I posted about that once here: http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...l=1#post132917 )

Here is a list of the instruments one finds around a Zen temple ...

http://terebess.hu/zen/szoto/hangszersz.html

Basically, the bells and drums in various combinations serve as clocks and signals for activities during the day, and within ceremonies. A certain pattern means Zazen is coming so everyone should report to the Zen Hall, another pattern that it is time for a meal, another pattern is simply to tell the time of day (like a church bell), when to get up or go to bed. During ceremonies, the different rings signal the monks when to do various bows, or when one is on the last section of a long chant and should get ready for the final line, or the like. For example, the ring down ... where the ping ping on the Inkin handbell gets faster and faster ... means that 3 Prostrations are coming, and one should prepare ones bowing cloth. Of course, there is always some Teacher or Lineage somewhere who has assigned their own very esoteric and elaborate mystical interpretations to all the bells and whistles. But, basically, they are melodic time signals, and just lovely musical instruments to accompany the chanting.

One rule of breathing during the Heart Sutra: Don't stop. Stopping breathing can be very dangerous.

Actually, this is a big issue for asthmatic me, who sometimes huffs and wheezes during ceremonies, besides being a klutz. Perhaps someone can recite the Heart Sutra in a single breath, but it would be quite a feat!

In the Japanese version of the Heart Version, you can hear that it sounds as the priest here takes a breath where he can, but taking long breaths that allow him to go quite a ways before his next breath.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOGiIHR8758

Also, if you do it for awhile in Japanese, you find that there are certain phrases that lend themselves easily to a breath (e.g., I find for me, right before the appearance of each "Hannya" later in the chant). I was once told to try to make it to the end of the sentence in Japanese too, but it is hard and does not really sound right to my ears. Also, if everyone were to take their breath at the same spot for a group chant, it might sound strange, so I am pretty sure people just breathe as needed.

What is more, I do not think anyone has ever standardized exactly how to chant the Heart Sutra and other chants into English (and I have no idea about German). The reason is that the length of sentences and phrasing in English is really quite different from in Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Tibetan etc. There is no "official version" in English. And I have never heard of a breath standard for the English version.

Hope that is helpful.

Gassho, J

[Yugen]

Thank you Jundo and Danny for engaging a wonderful teaching.

Deep bows
Yugen


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jika]

"They are rung that way because that is how we ring the bells".

Well, after my "Why is the Evening Gatha not the Morning Gatha?"-question, I was braced for something like that .

a klutz (is that also a German word?)

It is not everyday language, but I know it, and as it is Yiddish, I'm very happy it is a German word (again).

means that 3 Prostrations are coming

Don't ask how long it took me to figure that one out - but indeed!

The obvious is hardest to see.


Thank you very much for answering my questions, it was very interesting and helpful.

Gassho,
Danny

[Nindo]

Just 2 observations from practicing with a group in the ZMM tradition:
They sing the Heart Sutra as a group chant. When the Ino has to breathe, he/she just skips a syllable or two while the group keeps going. Obviously that would not work with one person chanting and the rest on muted mics! However, when I chant aloud by myself, I rather skip a syllable than lose the beat.
In that group, the bows during the Heart Sutra were only done by the priest, everybody else stood in gassho while chanting and did not bow. I noticed that in our zazenkais, most people also bow when the priest bows. (I'm not talking about the three bows, which everybody did together, but the ones that happen while chanting.)

Gassho,
Nindo

[Nindo]

PS The original Yiddish/German word is Klotz, which morphed to Klutz in 1960 according to the online etymology.

[Jundo]

In that group, the bows during the Heart Sutra were only done by the priest, everybody else stood in gassho while chanting and did not bow. I noticed that in our zazenkais, most people also bow when the priest bows. (I'm not talking about the three bows, which everybody did together, but the ones that happen while chanting.)

Well, yes, that is generally correct. However, there is some variation on this in the West from Sangha to Sangha, so my rule is "When in Rome, Bow as the Romans Bow". In our Sangha, where I am trying to soften or drop the hard border between "Priest" and "Lay" that one still tends to find at more "Japanese" settings like ZMM, I have rather encouraged the feeling that we all bow together.

Gassho, J

[Meishin]

A bow is never wasted.



Gassho
John

[jphiled]

To be honest, I never really liked chanting the Heart Sutra in English. I like to read it the same way one might read poetry out loud. For some reason, English doesn't feel right as a chanting language, perhaps because its my own native language.

I read somewhere long ago that liturgical languages are useful in this context because a) disparate communities can recite the same liturgy in a "neutral" langauge and b) it is usually tailored for chanting and recitation anyway. In the same way that Church Latin has diverged from spoken/classical Latin, Buddhist liturgical langauges like Pali or Classic Chinese (which is what we're really reciting when we recite the Heart Sutra) have diverged from the original language and become what we know today.

Granted, it's important to study in one's native language, but I guess chanting in the native language can feel awkward. At least to me.

[Jundo]

To be honest, I never really liked chanting the Heart Sutra in English. I like to read it the same way one might read poetry out loud. For some reason, English doesn't feel right as a chanting language, perhaps because its my own native language.

I read somewhere long ago that liturgical languages are useful in this context because a) disparate communities can recite the same liturgy in a "neutral" langauge and b) it is usually tailored for chanting and recitation anyway. In the same way that Church Latin has diverged from spoken/classical Latin, Buddhist liturgical langauges like Pali or Classic Chinese (which is what we're really reciting when we recite the Heart Sutra) have diverged from the original language and become what we know today.

Granted, it's important to study in one's native language, but I guess chanting in the native language can feel awkward. At least to me.

As I wrote elsewhere today .... English renderings of Chinese-Japanese renderings of old Sanskrit renderings of what ultimately cannot be expressed in words.

Gassho, J

[jphiled]

Ha ha ha, good point. More like:

Magadhi (the Buddha's own native language) -> Pali -> Classical Sanskrit -> Classical Chinese (with Japanese pronunciation) -> English or (insert Western Language of choice here)

I guess it's kind of like the Pirates' Code from Pirates of the Caribbean: more like guidelines than actual rules.

[Jundo]

H
I guess it's kind of like the Pirates' Code from Pirates of the Caribbean: more like guidelines than actual rules.

Oh, one can even Chant Like A Pirate ...

Avast! Avolokitesvara, Dat' Blimey Bodhisattva ... arrrr ....

In Ye Prajna Paramita ... arrr ... Davey Jones' Deep of Perfect Wisdom, ya scurvy scallywags ...

Perceived, Maties, 'tis emptiness of 'dem five conditions ... rattle yer timbers ...

And be free of sufferin', Ahoy!

Gassho, arrr .. J

[jphiled]

Gyar, ye speak fair and true, cap'n. I savvy what you mean now.

[orangedice]

Oh, one can even Chant Like A Pirate ...





Gassho, arrr .. J

Hahahaha, oh, the Internet has everything!

re: which language to chant in... I prefer English because I actually understand what's happening. I've been in Japanese services before (New Year's and my grandfather's funeral) and it doesn't mean anything to me besides a sense of camaraderie that I'm chanting with loved ones. And I think English can be beautiful. If it's not beautiful, how can there be English poets?

I actually thought the Kwan Um Zen recording they did of the Heart Sutra was very pretty. http://www.kwanumzen.org/chants/05-h...ra-english.mp3