A quick question... (JUNDO: That may take lifetimes to answer!!)

[jphiled]

Just wondering - do these rituals/beliefs come from the same root source as The Tibetan Book of the Dead?

It's certainly possible but personally I don't know. Tibetan Buddhism is a later "version" of Mahayana Buddhism imported from India (11th century vs 5th century in China) so a lot may have changed. Or not. (shrug)

[Jundo]

Just wondering - do these rituals/beliefs come from the same root source as The Tibetan Book of the Dead?

Gassho

Willow

Hi Willow,

First, and interesting thing is that the "Tibetan Book of the Dead" may be more important in the West than in Tibet, and not even really fully Tibetan!

as acclaimed writer and scholar of Buddhism Donald Lopez writes, "The Tibetan Book of the Dead is not really Tibetan, it is not really a book, and it is not really about death." In this compelling introduction and short history, Lopez tells the strange story of how a relatively obscure and malleable collection of Buddhist texts of uncertain origin came to be so revered--and so misunderstood--in the West.

The central character in this story is Walter Evans-Wentz (1878-1965), an eccentric scholar and spiritual seeker from Trenton, New Jersey, who, despite not knowing the Tibetan language and never visiting the country, crafted and named The Tibetan Book of the Dead. In fact, Lopez argues, Evans-Wentz's book is much more American than Tibetan, owing a greater debt to Theosophy and Madame Blavatsky than to the lamas of the Land of Snows. Indeed, Lopez suggests that the book's perennial appeal stems not only from its origins in magical and mysterious Tibet, but also from the way Evans-Wentz translated the text into the language of a very American spirituality.
http://press.princeton.edu/titles/9395.html

That being said, the notion of "49 days" is found in Tibet and is a real belief there. However, the notion of an "intermediate state", and a belief in the significance of "49 days" reaches way back to India, so certainly came to be shared throughout Buddhist countries,　especially in north Asia. (I confess to relying for my facts here a bit too much on google and wiki on this last claim). Sujato Bikkhu, a westerner and Buddhist scholar, writes some interesting tidbits on the significance of 7 and its multiples in Buddhism ...

Let’s have a look at some of the basic numbers used in early Buddhist texts, and their basic symbolic connotations. This is something I’ve noticed here and there over the years, but have done no systematic study. So this is just a few random suggestions.

... Seven – satta: This is the primary number of magic, especially life and death magic. It relates to two cosmic phenomena: the lunar cycles (and hence menstrual cycles); and the number of visible planets (5 = sun and moon). In both of these there is a sense of a cycle and a return, but also a death and rebirth. The moon dies each month, the sun each night; women’s fertility governs life and death; the wandering planets are an erratic curiosity compared with the static nobility of the stars. 7 is found all through myth and ritual, there being too many examples to even begin to cite them. But the general idea, as in the 7 days of Genesis, is ‘the entire cycle of birth and death’. 7 appears in this sense repeatedly in the Buddha’s mythology: taking 7 steps after his birth, Maya’s death 7 seven days, and so on. It carries on into folk Buddhist belief, where the soul crosses over after 7 (or 49) days. Some cases are not so clear: the 7 lives of the stream enterer is presented as literal, but it carries similar connotations of crossing over the cycle of birth and death.

http://sujato.wordpress.com/2010/04/15/buddhist-numerology/

Gassho, J

[Jinyo]

Jundo - thank you!

This is one of the many reasons I appreciate the shared knowledge here. I've been reading 'The Tibetan Book of the Dead' for some time - mainly as an
inspiration for an art project, but knew nothing about it's background other than what is written in the introduction.

The Donald S. Lopez book is not something I would have come across - but it looks really interesting. I think I'm going to read it because it will fill in historical gaps in the same way that David L. McMahan's 'The Making of Buddhist Modernism' did when I read it.

There's a good summary of Lopez's book in this archive,

http://rorotoko.com/interview/20110511_donald_lopez_on_tibetan_book_of_dead_biography/

History aside - there is fantastic imagery in the Tibetan Book of the Dead - and taken as metaphor for the machinations of the conscious/unconscious mind I find it useful.

Thanks for an interesting thread,

Gassho

Willow

[alan.r]

Interesting thread. Thanks Tim and Jundo. The Zen and the afterlife book looks interesting - I feel it's one aspect of Zen Buddhism I haven't really read anything about. Looking forward to it.

Gassho

[jphiled]

Thanks Jundo for the clarification. Don't feel bad about using the Internet for this. There's so much diversity in Buddhism, it's hard to keep track of it all, let alone one's own branch/lineage. I am much worse about it.

[Jundo]

Thanks Jundo for the clarification. Don't feel bad about using the Internet for this. There's so much diversity in Buddhism, it's hard to keep track of it all, let alone one's own branch/lineage. I am much worse about it.

We do have a couple of online book sections I have posted to help new folks (even some confused new-old folks) to make their way through the various flavors of Buddhism ... and various flavors of Zen! ... that one might encounter. Even within the Zen world, folks might be confused (I sure was, for years!) why books and talks by various Teachers, all called "Zen" ... might be recommending various rather different things. Even "Soto Zen" has various sub-flavors!

I like to say, "All Just The Same, yet sometimes very different. Often different, yet precisely the Same."

My main caution about the following is that they paint with a rather broad brush and overstatements ...


Special reading - eight types of enlightenment

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?6567-Special-reading-eight-types-of-enlightenment

Special reading - once born twice born zen (part 1)

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?6514-SPECIAL-READING-ONCE-BORN-TWICE-BORN-ZEN-%28Part-1%29

Special reading - (more) once born twice born zen

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?6539-Special-reading-%28more%29-once-born-twice-born-zen

For more in depth reading, we have the following on our recommended reading list ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?5711-SUGGESTED-BOOK-LIST-for-TREELEAF-SANGHA

BEST BOOKS FOR BEGINNERS INTRODUCING BASIC ZEN/BUDDHISM IN GENERAL:
• Buddhism For Dummies by Jonathan Landaw & Stephan Bodian (Jundo: I have been looking for a very long time for a book for people very new to Buddhism who want to know basic information and all the many flavors of Buddhist schools, their beliefs and practices. Despite the silly title, this is a very smart, well written, comprehensive and detailed yet easy (and fun) to read, humorous and serious guide, covers most of the major bases and in quite some detail, gives fair treatment to the many flavors of Buddhism, is very down to earth about the more magical aspects of Buddhism (it tries to present a more psychological than literal take on Karma and Rebirth, for example) .... and it covers everything and the kitchen sink. I learned a thing or two. I just wish they would change the title. If I have one criticism, I wish they had done a better job in contrasting the various approaches of Zen. I recommend this book primarily for people very new to Buddhism in general.)
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ...................

• Simple Guide to Zen Buddhism by Diana St. Ruth (Jundo: For folks who are completely new, puzzled and perplexed about Zen Buddhism's history and practices of various flavors. It is detailed in its explanation, balanced and quite comprehensive in the many topics it covers. I would not recommend the book for anyone who had been practicing for even a few months, but it may still answer some questions and be good to give to your dad or sister who is completely confused by what we are doing here ... and may think that we are wearing bed sheets while dancing in drum circles with the Dalai Lama during the Soltice. As with any book, it is not perfect. It could still do even a better job in explaining the various different approaches of Soto and Rinzai, Koan Centered Zazen and Shikantaza ... but they are touched upon. But compared to most other books on the subject, it is well researched, comprehensive, very balanced and gets it right.)

Gassho, J

[butterfly]

What a great discussion. This was quite enjoyable..
Thanks everyone

[jphiled]

Thank you Jundo for the helpful links and the book readings. I might read the "Dummies" book, since we're all beginners anyway.