Zoning Out...

[dharmasponge]

Hi everyone,

I am finding sitting a little easier. Primarily as I am not allowing myself to be too bothered with the rights and wrongs and the shoulds and musts.

However....there's always a 'however' with me...! However, as there is no dial that says "Hey...thats not Zazen, thats Zoning out...." How can I tell the difference?

Sitting now is letting go naturally, allowing, like standing in warm rain.

Too comfortable? Don't want to waste time on the cushion just hiding in a cozy corner of my mind.

Thanks in advance!

Tony...

[Daitetsu]

Hi Tony,

When you zone out, you zone out.
Sit down and let go. Everything.

Gassho,

Daitetsu

[dharmasponge]

Hi Tony,

When you zone out, you zone out.
Sit down and let go. Everything.

Gassho,

Daitetsu

Hmm...might as well stay in bed and Zone out with the wife then. Much more fun than zoning out in a cold conservatory in the dark!

[Myoku]

Tony,
I dont think you need to tell a difference. If sitting zazen is comfortable, enjoy that, there may come days when it is not I think when you sit on the cushion and have the right posture, you are well on track, and when there comes a however, aha .... a however, when there comes a "I'm zoning out" than you just noticed that thought. What Daitetsu said, sit down and let go, thats really difficult (for me at least, so I think I need more training). And when the However is gone some day something else might come, maybe a "but" or a "when finally does ..." or whatever. Our mind seems to always have some ideas.
Gassho
Myoku

[Jundo]

Sometimes we zone out, sometimes we do not. There is no wrong Zazen.

But if one is zoning out, and there is not a clear vibrancy to sitting, it is wrong Zazen. Totally wrong.

Zoning out, not zoning out ... all Zazen.

However, one should not regularly zone out. Zazen is Whole, Vibrant, Sitting that Hits the Spot!

If you do not realize what I mean by the above, you still not do understand Shikantaza.

Gassho, J

[Hans]

Hi Tony,

I feel that you really want to "understand" this practise, which on one hand is great and noble, but which is doomed to fail on the other hand if you still rely on your dualistic intellect to be the ultimate judge of the quality of your experience.

Judging mind will not save you. It is right in the epicenter of what for many of us is the problem (and yes, I borrow the way of putting this from Ken McLeod):

Not to be able to be present with whatever arises.

This is a life practise. A life practise.

Some of us vow to practise until we die and beyond that. This is a self sufficient practise, for hope-less people.

At some point we all have to ask ourselves whether we truly trust this practise to take us to the other shore. If the answer is yes, then even a few years of unsatisfying, superficial or disturbed sitting in a row will not make one abandon the Buddha Way.


Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

[Yugen]

Hans,
I bow to you for this teaching - it is very clear and sharp, like ice cracking in the stillness of a winter morning.

Thank you and Gassho
Yugen

[Jundo]

Yes, Hans sure said it!

I also say again ... Shikantaza is sat with an attitude of vitality, wholeness, as if the sparks might fly from one. If not, it is not right.

However, good or bad, right or wrong ... Zazen is never wrong.

Here are some famous descriptions of Shikantaza. People sometimes miss the "wholeheartedly" part ...

What is the use of doing zazen? Zazen is good for nothing. Unless you hear more than enough of that, and you just do what is good for nothing wholeheartedly, your practice is really good for nothing.
Homeless Kodo Sawaki

Some common translations of the word "Shikantaza" ... "nothing but (shikan) precisely (da) sitting (za)" ... "doing only zazen whole-heartedly" or "single-minded sitting."

Kobun Chino said, "Shikan means pure, one, only for it. Ta is a very strong word. It shows moving activity. When you hit, that movement is called ta, so strike is ta. Za is the same as in the word zazen, sitting."

One does not sit like a bump on a log, twiddling one's thumbs, daydreaming or zoning out. That is wrong Zazen. Wrong wrong wrong, right through and beyond all thought of "right and wrong". I sometimes say ...

[O]ur “goalless sitting” in Zazen is –not– merely sitting on our butts, self-satisfied, feeling that we “just have to sit here and we are Buddha“. Far from it. It is, instead, to-the-marrow dropping of all need and lack. That is very different. Someone’s “just sitting around” doing nothing, going no where, complacent or resigned, giving up, killing time, is not in any way the same as “Just Sitting” practice wherein nothing need be done, with no where that we can go or need go ...

... So, if someone were to think I am saying, “All you need to do in Zazen is sit down on one’s hindquarters, and that’s enough … just twiddle your thumbs in the ‘Cosmic Mudra’ and you are Buddha” then, respectfully, I believe they do not get my point. But if they understand, “There is absolutely no place to be, where one needs to be or elsewhere where one can be, than on that Zafu in that moment, and that moment itself is all complete, all-encompassing, always at home, the total doing of All Life, Time and Space fully realized” … they are closer to the flavor.

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?11158-How-to-do-Shikantaza&p=105442&viewfull=1#post105442

Gassho, J

[Entai]

Just an observation,
My cat can sit or lay perfectly still for long periods of time. I don't know what's going on in her mind. If she's dozing or zoned out. But if something as little as a fly passes by.... she pounces with agility and grace.

Gassho, Entai

[Daitetsu]

Hmm...might as well stay in bed and Zone out with the wife then. Much more fun than zoning out in a cold conservatory in the dark!

Indeed! When I have the choice I'll prefer "zoning out with my wife in bed" anytime over zazen. (sorry Jundo)

However, you've just constructed a false dilemma, because you don't have to choose.
There is a time for bed, there is a time for washing the dishes, there is a time for going to the toilet, there is a time for zazen.
The point is with what attitude you do it. Then anything can be zazen.

Gassho,

Daitetsu

[Rich]

Wow Hans, thank you for your teaching.

Kind regards. /\

[Joyo]

Hello, yes, great teachings here, thank you all.

Maybe this is just me, but I do not worry about whether I am wasting time on the cushion or not, because there is nothing else that needs to be done. I zone out, I worry, fret, think, analyze all on the cushion, but then I let it go, again and again and again.

Gassho,
Joyo

[Rich]

Joyo, I think you get the point.
Zoning out is not the issue, keeping the direction of your practice is the only issue. If this was a contest zoning out would have won long ago.

Kind regards. /\

[Kyonin]

Hi Tony,

Like my wise friends said before, Zazen is whole and it doesn't care how much you want to intellectualize your experience.

If you keep on sitting and drop all questions, Zazen will come to be completely and you won't need to look for answers. Something inside you will be happy knowing that you know now.

Hard to put into words, but just keep on sitting and let go of thoughts.

Gassho,

Kyonin

[dharmasponge]

Thanks again for you help and advice everyone. Hans, beautiful words. I guess I am still concerned that the time I spend on the cushion needs to be focused rather than a cotton wool like comfortable retreat. _/|\_