TNH and the Heart Sutra

[Nameless]

I love TNH's presentation and quote the "paper and sun" story many times.

If there is one criticism, some folks have found TNH's presentation to sometimes be too materialistic, in the sense of being limited in the things he lists to observable physical objects and living beings, matter and energy of the world. Also, there is not a sense of the wondrous interflowing wholeness of emptiness. Perhaps we need to add something like, "and the paper is all things ... and not things ... beyond and right through that, known and unknown, and each is all and each is the other through and through".

Something (and not thing) like that.

Gassho, J

Thank you Jundo. He does indeed seem to limit it to the material. Now, off to sit again before bed.

Gassho, John

[Anshu Bryson]

I love TNH's presentation and quote the "paper and sun" story many times.

If there is one criticism, some folks have found TNH's presentation to sometimes be too materialistic, in the sense of being limited in the things he lists to observable physical objects and living beings, matter and energy of the world. Also, there is not a sense of the wondrous interflowing wholeness of emptiness. Perhaps we need to add something like, "and the paper is all things ... and not things ... beyond and right through that, known and unknown, and each is all and each is the other through and through".

Something (and not thing) like that.

Gassho, J

I read one review of TNH's work as being 'accessible'; I think that is the reason for his 'materialistic' presentation. His ever-growing audience is not restricted to scholars or practitioners of Buddhism; he likely feels the need to speak from a framework easiest grasped by the majority of readers. If that leads to further delving on the part of those readers, that's a good thing, no...?

Gassho,

Bryson

[Jundo]

I read one review of TNH's work as being 'accessible'; I think that is the reason for his 'materialistic' presentation. His ever-growing audience is not restricted to scholars or practitioners of Buddhism; he likely feels the need to speak from a framework easiest grasped by the majority of readers. If that leads to further delving on the part of those readers, that's a good thing, no...?

Gassho,

Bryson

Hi Bryson,

Accessible is wonderful. But it could be that a way of describing Emptiness and Dependent Origination can also be a little misleading.

Gassho, J

[Hans]

Hello,

as much as I loved Thich Nhat Hanh's book on Dying and some other of his works, and as much I admire him for his great courage, wisdom and perseverance when faced with terrible tragediy, I remember reading a text of his on dependent origination many years ago that left me with the impression that he completely misrepresented the radical underbelly of the emptiness teachings. I do believe his dharma activities do strengthen and spread wisdom, compassion etc., but the whole "interbeing" notion reifies existence in a way that to me has little to do with the uniqueness of the Prajna Paramita. To each his own. And no, I don not claim to be half as courageous and wise as him in general.

Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

[Jinyo]

Hi Bryson,

Accessible is wonderful. But it could be that a way of describing Emptiness and Dependent Origination can also be a little misleading.

Gassho, J

Hi Jundo - would appreciate if you could you explain a little more. Not sure I understand how TNH is misleading?

The thing is - his words do look deceptively simple - but he keeps repeating 'to look deeply'. This feels more than a simple material instruction - because to look deeply and then sense the whole universe in a sheet a paper maybe requires a deeply meditative stance that can bring one to a realisation of something wonderous beyond the material aspect of interconnectivity?

Hi Hans - could you say a little more too?
Just to say I read TNH's book on death and found it didn't help me - I wanted it to but it didn't - but I have always assumed this is a 'weakness' in myself not the teaching.

Gassho

Willow

[Hans]

Hello Willow,

Dharma teachings come in a lot of flavours....and sometimes the different ways in which different aspects are highlighted make it seem as if we are talking about different religions....and who knows....maybe we are.

Btw. I do not claim to be the world's foremost authority on emptiness as a lived experience, otherwise I'd be a great Bodhisattva....and let me add that emptiness as an intellectual concept doesn't interest me.

Dependent origination is not just about showing how THINGS work or how they are inter-related. It points toward the groundlessness and ultimate non-existence of THINGS as real things. Including the illusory sense of I.

This is radical, literally groundbreaking stuff.

Most people whom I hear or read (and I am just a guy with limited life experience) use the words and concepts "inter-being" and "we are all inter-related" after having been exposed to the TNH way of putting things seem to take Pratitiya-Samutpada
to point them to a positive affirmation of their existence as part of a wonderful chain of related stuff. We are all responsible for the planets future etc. often follows.

To me personally, nothing could be further from the intent of the original Pratitiya-Samutpada based Dharma teachings. The Suttas and Sutras are all out there for people to read btw., so everyone can find their own way towards their own experiential understanding of these matters. It is true IMHO that the Tathagatagharba/Buddha nature teachings had to arise in order to counter the Prajna Paramitas tendency of being almost too radical in the ears of most practitioners...but nevertheless Prajna Paramita and dependent origination teachings repeatedly point towards the fact that our normal reification of our selves is ....excuse the French... bullshit

I am NOT a nihilist, to me that is another false dharmic view, but you simply will not find me in the "let's make it sweet, so that more people will be able to get in touch with it" camp. Maybe TNH's approach is a far better Upaya position than my own...it's just not the way I roll...and I am a nobody.



Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

[Jundo]

Hi Jundo - would appreciate if you could you explain a little more. Not sure I understand how TNH is misleading?

The thing is - his words do look deceptively simple - but he keeps repeating 'to look deeply'. This feels more than a simple material instruction - because to look deeply and then sense the whole universe in a sheet a paper maybe requires a deeply meditative stance that can bring one to a realisation of something wonderous beyond the material aspect of interconnectivity?

Hi Willow,

I like what Hans tries to say, and just add this ...

If I find someone describing a Beethoven Symphony as violin, viola, cello and bass, woodwinds and brass, conductor and composer, stage and lighting, audience and notes on the page ... and each violin its strings, wood, tuning screws, varnish and player ... I would say some of the wonder and "big picture" is missing.

There is something more to Emptyness than things dependent on other things to make a whole. There is a great Symphony, and Dance of Emptiness, where a certain wonder happens more than the sum of parts, and transcendent of any one, yet each and all, one flowing into the other.

As Hans described, there is something here more wondrous than merely parts flowing together, or their coming together in some whole or interdependency, but a complete and harmonious vanishing of all separation and individuals ... only to reemerge with the symphony fully contained in each and all (as if all the other instruments are ever fully and originally held in each one in a very real and radical sense beyond mere relationship and identity. This is a bit like saying the mother fully holds the unborn child within, and continues to do so after seeming birth and separation ... in such way all facets of the world fully hold within all other facets in the most intimate sense).

This is something very hard to express, so old Zen guys turn to the cushion, poetry and such. However, TNH's very mechanical description ... a bit like describing the parts of the orchestra ... strikes me sometimes as brilliant, but a little cold.

The Steve Stucky death poem I posted earlier today does better ...

“This human body truly is the entire cosmos
Each breath of mine, is equally one of yours, my darling
This tender abiding in “my” life
Is the fierce glowing fire of inner earth
Linking with all pre-phenomena
Flashing to the distant horizon
From “right here now” to “just this”
Now the horizon itself
Drops away—
Bodhi!
Svaha.”

Dogen from Genjo Koan

Enlightenment is like the moon reflected on the water. The moon does not get wet, nor is the water broken. Although its light is wide and great, the moon is reflected even in a puddle an inch wide. The whole moon and the entire sky are reflected in dewdrops on the grass, or even in one drop of water. Enlightenment does not divide you, just as the moon does not break the water. You cannot hinder enlightenment, just as a drop of water does not hinder the moon in the sky. The depth of the drop is the height of the moon. Each reflection, however long or short its duration, manifests the vastness of the dewdrop, and realizes the limitlessness of the moonlight in the sky.

Gassho, J

[Risho]

Man I'm confused. lol

Hans: sorry to put you on the spot, but I find what you said interesting. What do you mean by "reification of our selves"? I think I know what means ... I mean we try to establish that we exist separate and independent? But of course we don't exist independently. Isn't that pretty obvious? Without all the components that come together to make a human being there would be no human beings. At the same time I sure as hell do exist, and I'm not a hammer. I'm not a car. I'm a human being. There are causes and conditions that make me a human vs. something else. But I'm really confused on that point. I think I'm simplifying this somewhat, and it's difficult to discuss.

The reason I think I'm simplifying this is that it always seems like this is such a big revelation that everything is related or empty of an independent self-existence. But I think that's pretty obvious. Of course everything is defined in relative terms. I mean what is blue? You know blue because you know what blue is not. The color can also be defined by a measurable frequency but measurement is completely relative and based on context (i.e. everything around it). But I also think I'm missing a lot of what emptiness is trying to express.

I don't even know how to express what I'm not understanding. lol

Gassho,

Risho

[Hans]

Dear Risho,

"I don't even know how to express what I'm not understanding."

That is a wonderful place to be in

There is little point in me trying to explain something that cannot be explained, that can only be pointed at, but the bottom line is that it is not about intellectual views. All these words circle around the recognition of something very apparent yet easily overlooked. Words can do so little to help us, but they can do so much to tip us into the wrong direction when we turn them into calcified-crystallised things we mistake for something that really exists. It is not about words, it is how they point and what that leads us to, or what it leads us away from.

Balancing on a razor's edge,
some peoples' safety ropes seem to me
like feathers made of lead.
The feather feels so soft,
as it drops onto my balancing arm,
but I cannot help but feel too that...
it tips me towards the abyss.

May I and all sentient beings steer the raft of Dharma
towards arriving at groundlessness,
where nothing is lacking.

In this palace of awe,
things never had a true abode in the first place.


Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

[Kaishin]

Thanks, Hans

To what does it lead us? And away from what?
Thanks,
Kaishin

[Hans]

Hello Kaishin,

right where you are,
the space behind your question mark,
needs looking into.

Hint: Concepts won't cut it.

Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

[Risho]

Thank you Hans! I think I was starting to try to intellectualize myself out of this.

Again, I'm really thankful for this thread; sometimes I get complacent, but questions like these are just awesome.

Gassho,

Risho

[Meishin]

Thank you all very much for this teaching. Now I'll sew.

Gassho
John

[Jishin]

Words can do so little to help us, but they can do so much to tip us into the wrong direction

Good advice in my case.

Gassho, Jishin

[Nameless]

The whole is different than the sum of its parts. Ah Gestalt, what a lovely psychological perspective you are.

Gassho, John