Beginner's question on "what to do with the mind"

[Estrella]

I joined a few days ago and have watched only a few of the videos, so maybe this question would answer itself, but still I would like some instruction now if possible.
In the zazen instructions you tell us to release thoughts and return to the open blue sky, but how does one go about it?
You say not to concentrate on the breath beyond the first few days.
Until now, I used to try to release my thoughts when I noticed them and then watch my breath, the surounding sounds, bodily sensations or some other changing parameter I chose. But how does one return to the open blue sky?
In one of the beginner's talks, Taigu says one can "rest the mind on the left palm" of the joined hands, that sounded like a possible good start which I thought I would try, but it is still an anchor of sorts. How does one sit with no anchor at all?
gassho
Estrella

[Jundo]

Hi Estrella,

The best description I know is just that, when thoughts come, do not grab on. If finding oneself sitting while tangled in thoughts, just let them go and return to the quiet, clear open space between thoughts. When thoughts return, repeat ... repeat 10,000 times and 10,000 times again. This is not getting tangled in thoughts ... letting go when tangled.

But I have begun to notice lately that folks seem very much concerned about what to do with the thoughts during Zazen, but few people seem to mention the following ... which is perhaps the most vital aspect of all. Even many Shikantaza teachers do not emphasize this enough, but the reason for it is very clear. This is the crux, and must not be missed:

And most vitally ... Sit with dedication, as the only Place to be, only Act in need of acting in that moment. Sit knowing in one's bones that sitting is Whole and Complete.

Here is my standard long version:

One must sit with the attitude [felt in the marrow of the bones] that sitting itself is the Whole and Complete Act, the one thing to do ... the only thing in need of doing ... in that moment in all reality ... no other place to go, no other action in need of doing in such moment. Sitting is not an instrumentality or technique to the realizing of something ... and thus in dropping all thought of instrumentality toward realization, one realizes what can only be realized in such way.

...

Thus, when there is sat an instant of Zazen as wholeness in just sitting, the only place to be and act to do in that instant, in all of reality, to fulfill life as life ... the Buddha and all the Ancestors just sitting in that instant of sitting, no other thing to attain or which ever can be attained ... no other place to go or in need of going ... all holes filled, whether full or empty or in between ... all lack and excess resolved in that one sitting, with not one thing to add or take away ... judgments dropped away, "likes and dislikes" put aside ... nothing missing from Zazen (even when we might feel that "something is missing", for one can be fully content with the feeling of lack!) ... the sitting of Zazen and all life experienced as complete and whole as just the sitting of Zazen ... the entire universe manifesting itself on the Zafu at that moment ...

Why? How often do we encounter an act or instant as the total culmination of itself, nothing more to add or take away therefrom? This is the heart of the "non-doing, total realization" of Zazen. If you would like to read a discussion about why this attitude is so vital, we have had an ongoing thread here that I recommend ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?12710-Wasting-Time

Old Dogen seems rarely to have talked about the mechanics of what to do with the thoughts, but he spoke endlessly of sitting Zazen as such a golden act ... "Realization is simply just sitting zazen" (From Eihei Koroku).

Folks are concerned about what to do or not do with the thoughts (which is fine), but do not seem concerned about the rest. I cannot emphasize such enough. Give such a good "non-try" Estrella.

Gassho, J

[Kyotai]

Wonderful question Estrella, thank you. It is good to hear Jundo's gentle reminder.

Gassho, Shawn

[Entai]

Jundo, I need that reminder often.

Gassho, Entai

[Hotetsu]

Hi Estrella,
I encountered the same problem when I first started sitting. Jundo couldn't be more right. When thoughts come up in my mind, I acknowledge that it is there, then let it pass by like a cloud or a piece of driftwood. It takes practice, but then again, that is what we are always doing :-). After all, we are all beginners. Thank you, Jundo, for the wonderful response.

Gassho,
Scott
Sent from my RM-917_nam_usa_100 using Tapatalk

[Jundo]

let it pass by like ... a piece of driftwood.

Oh, I likey! I think I will steal that line next time!

[Estrella]

Thank you for all the comments and Jundo for your wise reply.
There is a phrase that particularly caught my attention: "one can be fully content with the feeling of lack."
i think I'm going to work on that one.
gassho

[Hotetsu]

Lol thanks Jundo. The line is all yours 😁.

Gassho,
Scott
Sent from my RM-917_nam_usa_100 using Tapatalk

[Myoku]

Estrella,
in my experience when you notice the thought, there is no need to do anything with it. I always think the same stuff and about the same things, as soon as I notice what boring TV that is in my hear it vanishes by itself (probably because i loose interest ... but someone seems to always switch it on again). Having said this, it took me a few years to really get bored by my thoughts.
Gassho
Myoku

[Kyonin]

Hi Estrella,

When sitting zazen one does not need to do anything but to understand the thinking process is taking place. And then let go of the thought.

It's a little like saying in your mind: "Oh, this is a memory from yesterday." Then don't comment on it. Don't attach to it and it will just go by.

Of course that though will be followed by another one. And then you do the same.

With practice and time I have found that there is a space between the arrival of a new though. It lasts a mere second or even less.

It's hard to understand, but the more you sit, the easier it will get. Just be patient and diligent in your practice.

Gassho,

Kyonin

[Kyonin]

Hi guys.

I was reading this article that I thought interesting. It's about Meta-Attention, which is something I have been doing for years but I had no idea it even had a name.

It turns out that you can try and see what your mind is paying attention to while it's thinking something.

Weird concept. Take a read if you want.

Here's how that works: A vital part of developing a deep meditation practice is cultivating awareness of attention, or "meta-attention." Having meta-attention means tracking where attention is pointing, moment by moment. So, if you're meditating on the body sensations of breathing, for example, most of your attention is absorbed in that. But some modicum of attention is making sure that your attention is focused on breathing sensations, or noticing that attention has wandered to something else. It's attention on attention, hence the "meta." Meta-attention allows you to stay focused because it keeps track of where your attention is.

Having good concentration is a vital skill, but having good meta-attention will revolutionize your practice. That's because as far as meta-attention is concerned, there are no distractions. There is just the sensation or object that you've decided to focus on and then there is everything else. If you are focused on the desired object, meta-attention tells you so. Good. Keep going. If you're attention has moved to something else, meta-attention tells you so. Good. Bring attention back to the desired object.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-taft/how-to-use-distractions-t_b_5777724.html

Gassho,

Kyonin

[Heisoku]

What an interesting thread, thanks everyone.
I watched a hilarious Eckhart Tolle video on Youtube called Meditation. In it he pokes fun at how we live our lives in thoughts, memories and plans without being aware of it. He also makes the point that this awareness of our awareness of thoughts and consciousness is none other than our attentive presence (meta awareness?)that is no different to this present moment now.
Which reminds me of the first line from the Sutra dedication ... Buddhanature pervades the whole universe, Reality existing right here.
Gassho
Heisoku.

[Estrella]

It's good to read about all your experiences, they're non-definitions rather than definitions, but one gets the feel of what you mean. Meta-attention is what I generally attempt but I don't always manage to keep it up. I guess it's not a question of needing instructions but only of being patient and consistent.

[Estrella]

It's good to read about all your experiences, they're non-definitions rather than definitions, but one gets the feel of what you mean. Meta-attention is what I generally attempt but I don't always manage to keep it up. I guess it's not a question of needing instructions but only of being patient and consistent.
gassho

[Ugrok]

Yes, just keep with it. You'll see, practice evolves, and slowly you will begin to feel what it means to "just sit" - and you will understand that you were doing it right from the first time, ahaha ! Don't worry, you can't do anything wrong really, just sit everyday.