Waking Up Sam Harris

[Anshu Bryson]

I'm not surprised by non-theism , I'm a non-theist which means I can swing both ways . It's the atheism that surprises.. I mean.. Jeez.

Gassho
Daizan

I'm hearing you Daizan, but I think maybe you are misreading the 'label'... 'Atheism' as a term actually isn't really very useful, or even indicative. There is no other form of non-belief that has a similar term. There is no word for people who don't believe in fairies (a-fairy-ism?) or leprechauns (a-leprechaunism?), for example. Atheism isn't a belief system, it is merely the lack of belief in divine agency, in a creator-God who answers our prayers, etc. (there is a distinct difference between a belief that there is no god and a lack of belief that there is one...). It also doesn't preclude feelings of kindredness and compassion to those who don't share those beliefs (sadly this is not always reciprocal...). Again, I see no conflict with Buddhist practice... As far as swinging both ways goes, to each their own...

Gassho,

Bryson

[RichardH]

I'm hearing you Daizan, but I think maybe you are misreading the 'label'... 'Atheism' as a term actually isn't really very useful, or even indicative. There is no other form of non-belief that has a similar term. There is no word for people who don't believe in fairies (a-fairy-ism?) or leprechauns (a-leprechaunism?), for example. Atheism isn't a belief system, it is merely the lack of belief in divine agency, in a creator-God who answers our prayers, etc. (there is a distinct difference between a belief that there is no god and a lack of belief that there is one...). It also doesn't preclude feelings of kindredness and compassion to those who don't share those beliefs (sadly this is not always reciprocal...). Again, I see no conflict with Buddhist practice... As far as swinging both ways goes, to each their own...

Gassho,

Bryson

Hi Bryson. Atheism is certainly a belief system, a belief system mirroring Theism. They are two sides of one coin... and the most subtle forms of Atheism and Theism are none other than Nihilism and Eternalism. It is none other than clinging to a view of No-self or True-Self. They are skillful means and both good in context, but not an end.

Maybe the term atheism means something different to different people.. that is what the it means to me.

Gassho
Daizan

[Anshu Bryson]

Hi Bryson. Atheism is certainly a belief system, a belief system mirroring Theism. They are two sides of one coin... and the most subtle forms of Atheism and Theism are none other than Nihilism and Eternalism. It is none other than clinging to a view of No-self or True-Self. They are skillful means and both good in context, but not an end.

Maybe the term atheism means something different to different people.. that is what the it means to me.

Gassho
Daizan

Hi Daizan,

We'll have to agree to disagree...

Gassho,

Bryson

[Byokan]

Originally Posted by Daizan

It makes sense to have an honest view or perspective and have passion around it, but how could that view become fixed in the mind? Staking out an absolute position might be effective politics, but is it really held absolutely?


...it makes no difference how subtle or nuanced philosophical views are. They can't reach what has been directly realized. There are still questions and views about this-and-that, but only this-and-that. So when I hear about atheism, agnosticism, theism, it just sounds like trying to grasp the ungraspable.


Buddhism is a non-theistic religion that leaves questions about Ultimate Truth to "Noble Silence" , while warning of the extremes of eternalism and nihilism. This is the A, B fricken C's right?

Yes. Any view or opinion, by definition, opposes other views and opinions, creating distinction and separation. Sitting in open awareness beyond thoughts, opinions, views, perceptions, formations and consciousness, one may directly realize Emptiness.


Any preconceived opinion or belief seems to only allow a partial apprehension of (for lack of a better term) Ultimate Truth. I always think about the blind men describing the elephant: one feels the trunk and says it is like a snake, one feels the leg and says it is like a tree, etc. The “truth” is to be found in realizing not only the complete form of the elephant, but that the blind men themselves are the elephant, everything is the elephant, and the elephant is all, while at the same time -- of course there is no elephant! And the idea that you can know the nature of the elephant by feeling it with your hand, is like thinking you can know Reality through belief or atheism or any other -ism.


And/but, even though there is no elephant, we feed the elephant, give him water, and try not to get stepped on. So the contradiction: in day-to-day life we have opinions, views and beliefs, and they drive our actions, hopefully for the “good”. We pick a side. If the side you pick enables you to live a good life, that’s great. And if it happens to be the “right” one ultimately, then maybe you win a prize! But I agree with Daizan (if I am understanding him correctly), that to grasp on to an absolute position, to have that view become fixed in the mind, and to come to the cushion holding it, seems to be an impediment to direct realization, and yes, to me that does seem like the A, B, fricken C’s.


But of course this is, you know, just an opinion. A view. My belief! And I say it with all respect to anything anyone else believes, because I can’t judge what is in someone else’s heart. I have no enlightenment, I don’t know what’s True, and it’s all philosophy, and philosophy is not Zen. I guess the best we can do is come to the cushion with an open heart and an open mind, as much as possible.

Gassho
Lisa

[Anshu Bryson]

I see one problem that people add a lot of concepts when they hear the word "Atheism". Many people think it is a philosophy or a belief.
However, Atheism does only state one thing: Not Theism.
A Theist is someone who believes in a personal god who intervenes in his creation (someone who believes in a non-interfering god would be a Deist).
Atheist simply means - "Not a Theist".
If someone says Atheism is a belief then "Non-Skiing" would be sports or "Non-Smoking" would be an addiction.
So as an Atheist one can follow all kinds of philosophies.

What Daitetsu said...

[Byokan]

What Daitetsu said...

Hi Bryson,

I get that, but I think not-a-theist could be an impediment just as well as theist. I have no idea what Ultimate Reality is. If someday Supreme Enlightenment should arise, and if it should encompass something theistic or deistic, I want to be open to that and not miss it because I’ve already set my mind one way or the other.


To be clear, this is an ideal. I don’t come to the cushion as an empty vessel; far from it! I have beliefs and opinions and stories about myself that inform and shape the way I move through the world. In fact I do identify variously as an atheist, pantheist, animist, and lots of other ists, but I hold all those identities with an open hand, and try to set all that aside when I come to the cushion.

Gassho
Lisa

[Anshu Bryson]

Hi Bryson,

I get that, but I think not-a-theist could be an impediment just as well as theist. I have no idea what Ultimate Reality is. If someday Supreme Enlightenment should arise, and if it should encompass something theistic or deistic, I want to be open to that and not miss it because I’ve already set my mind one way or the other.


To be clear, this is an ideal. I don’t come to the cushion as an empty vessel; far from it! I have beliefs and opinions and stories about myself that inform and shape the way I move through the world. In fact I do identify variously as an atheist, pantheist, animist, and lots of other ists, but I hold all those identities with an open hand, and try to set all that aside when I come to the cushion.

Gassho
Lisa

Hi Lisa,

I think we are likely going in circles now, but I'll close with this. There is no reason to think that a non-theistic or atheistic view will 'set' ones mind one way or the other (i.e. be an 'absolute' position). Rational thinkers will always be open to a change of mind on the emergence of new evidence. As you've rightly pointed out, however, none of this thought process is necessary when we 'just sit'...

Gassho,

Bryson

[Byokan]

Hi Bryson,

Ah! Circled in on a good point, my friend, I can definitely meet you there. This is the crux of the thing; not to become too attached to one’s views or opinions, but to hold them as “working hypotheses.” Cheers to rational thinking and open minds in the world, and dropping it all on the cushion!

Gassho
Lisa

[Josan]

Folks,
This thread has left my head spinning

Do we really need to analyse everything to the nth degree?

Can we not just keep things simple - sit, be present, chop wood. carry water, follow the precepts?

Gassho,

David

[Byokan]

David,

Yup, fell off the wagon again. On my way to Overthinkers Anonymous meeting right now!

Gassho
Lisa

[Jundo]

Folks,
This thread has left my head spinning

Do we really need to analyse everything to the nth degree?

Can we not just keep things simple - sit, be present, chop wood. carry water, follow the precepts?

Gassho,

David

If there is a God, I am sure She would not mind. In fact, if there is a God or something so, I believe there is no better way to get close to Her.

[Daitetsu]

Hi Daizan,

I'm not surprised by non-theism , I'm a non-theist which means I can swing both ways .

You've just described how I define Atheism though. I don't distinguish between non-theism and atheism.

Here is why:

Let's say we have a cake.
Person A takes a piece from it and eats it. He is a Cakist.
Person B does not eat from it. He is an A-Cakist.
Person C thinks "I am not sure. Maybe I eat it later."
However, Person C has de facto not eaten from the cake either and is thus an A-Cakist, too.
And if Person C later decides to have his piece of cake, he is a Cakist.
So actually it is not necessary to give Person C a different category with regards to the Cake.

The funny part comes, when one of these guys realizes that he IS the Cake (in fact everyone).


OK, just wanted to add this as I'd like to end this on a funny note.
As I said, it depends a lot on definitions.

I had endless discussions like these in the past, but I am glad this time is over.
My boundaries began to melt some years ago and it's so relaxing now. And funny, and tragic, and everything.

I don't care (anymore) whether the glass of water is half empty or half full - I just drink it.

Gassho,

Daitetsu

[Rich]

Being with God is JUST THIS. THIS is true God. You can call it Buddha nature, universal spirit, Allah, or anything that makes sense for you. IMHO

Kind regards. /\

[RichardH]

First to respond to David W. This was an immediate and desperate (no exaggeration) problem for me as a kid... cause?, causeless cause?, no cause?, Self?, Being? , God?, The Divine?, Theos?, Ain Soph?, Brahman?... by any name or namelessness?, ..or not. It was settled in practice in a clear Yes and No, without any ambiguity. Now, getting older and tired , this discussion is not heavy or involving overthinking, it is just normal, basic, stuff. It is actually nice to talk about this normal stuff, to not be alone with this normal stuff.

So, maybe... this comes down to what “atheism” means. I would suggest that the narrow definition is out of touch with the world we live in today and the painful cultural divisions of today. The actual general and deeply held usage of the term is a rejection of much more than a certain narrow style of the Sacred, or Divine. If it is just about labels then, to declare oneself an Athiest Buddhist is to declare Buddhism as standing on one side. That is not helpful for the Dharma blooming in the west. It is narrowing. That's obviously just one opinion.

Gassho
Daizan

[Kyotai]

Well said Daizan,

For me, if one is an atheist buddhist, one is an atheist buddhist. And that places buddhism no more on one side then a Catholic buddhist.

But, I do see what your saying. I agree. The two do not necessarily go hand in hand and that may cause confusion for those new or newly interested in buddhism.

And yes, the term atheist carries much more baggage culturally. In fact when I think of the word atheist I do think of the more aggressive atheists who have taken up a cause.

I would very much agree with Daizan on my personal defining of atheism and non - theism being one in the same, except that one of those words is a firecracker where you and I call home. And even more so Due South.

David, I agree sometimes it is best to end a discussion and go about your day. But, I too like to hear differing opinions sometimes.

(Plus I heat my home with propane so I have some extra time on my hands lol)

Gassho, Shawn