Waking Up Sam Harris

[alan.r]

I guess what I am referring to is when , in course of sitting, views ..thoughts cease or pause, and questions no long arise. Everything is forgotten in immediate presence, and the forgetting is forgotten. I don't mean to sound fancy but that's about it, and it just happens from time to time by itself. The question of my own being is settled beyond doubt or no-doubt. When thinking/views return they have a different aspect, and it makes no difference how subtle or nuanced philosophical views are. They can't reach what has been directly realized. There are still questions and views about this-and-that, but only this-and-that. So when I hear about atheism, agnosticism, theism, it just sounds like trying to grasp the ungraspable.

Gassho
Daizan

Hi Daizan,

I understand what you're saying, and I don't agree or disagree, but just to play devil's advocate: isn't there something absolute about your position here? That it is impossible/contradictory (not sure which you're implying) to sit with an absolute concept (atheism in this case) because it is grasping/defining - isn't that also an absolute concept about what sitting should be? Or do you really "not understand"? Just questions, gentle ones.

I think there could easily be an open fluidity to a term like "atheist" or a term like "god," and that one just has to use words sometimes, but perhaps these words mean something beyond to the user, just as there must necessarily be an openness and something beyond to a term like "immediate presence." At the same time, I don't know Sam Harris at all.

Just some thoughts, already gone.

Gassho

[Kyotai]

All of the man made ones!

Gassho, Shawn

[Myosha]

Hello,

". . .he says that the self/ego can be "altered or entirely extinguished." I'm not sure of the latter. . . I know some schools of Buddhism may think that, but has anyone ever experienced it?

Gassho,

Kirk"

A quote describes a long-ago personal experience -

"A perception, sudden as blinking, that subject and object are one, will lead to a deeply mysterious wordless understanding." – Zen Master Huang-po

Could be Sam Harris's reference(?)


Gassho,
Myosha

[Risho]

Third, he says that the self/ego can be "altered or entirely extinguished." I'm not sure of the latter. I think we all agree here that according to Zen, this isn't the case; I know some schools of Buddhism may think that, but has anyone ever experienced it?

I would guess our selves would be extinguished when we die. lol Seriously, if our "self" were extinguished, how could our "self" experience it? To me it sounds like a specious statement.

Daizan, I sit zen and I believe in God; although my view of God isn't some person with a beard sitting on a throne. I doubt many people believe in that mythos.

Gassho,

Risho

[Kyotai]

Did not mean any disrespect in my above comment to those who have a strong belief in god. I certainly respect everyone's belief system and I love that we can have a healthy discussion in this sangha.

Gassho, Shawn

[Risho]

Shawn,

Although I believe in God... I don't really take offense at people who do not. I don't really care about defending my beliefs or trying to push my beliefs on others. Beliefs are beliefs; you can't logically refute or prove them. Actually, differing beliefs interest me quite a bit.

I've never understood holding so tightly onto beliefs that you'd get angry at someone for believing something contrary. Or you might think my beliefs are silly.. but who cares? I mean that's what makes this Sangha great.. I really think that's what makes Zen practice great.... just keeping an open mind.

I don't really know how to articulate my belief in God. It's just something that I have. I am certainly not a traditionalist by any means, which I'm sure offends people too. hahahaha

Gassho,

Risho

[Kyotai]

Thanks Risho. My comment ""all of the man made ones" after reflecting, kinda sounded as if I was saying those who believe in god, are believing in made up nonsense. And that wasn't my intention.

I wasn't suggesting you would take offence to those who don't believe in what you do.

Thanks Risho

Gassho, Shawn

[Kyotai]

Risho, your inbox is full. Can't Reply lol.

[Risho]

Ack -- I'll have to fix that. hahaha

I just responded:

Ha I was about to send you an email too! I understand what you are saying; I was just trying to say you didn't offend me. lol

Going back to belief... To tell you the truth I don't always fully understand my beliefs. A lot of my beliefs are due to what I was taught when I was younger. So I'm a skeptical believer if that makes sense. At the same time (and it could probably just be from my learning during my formative years) I just believe. Ah man, the craziness of belief and of being human

Now I'm going to add... although I believe in Jesus, I've never really cared too much about the miracles. I've always thought that miracle stories were sort of like sales pitches to get someone to join a religion, and I really have no interest in selling anyone on any of my beliefs or rejecting anyone's beliefs, unless those beliefs are harmful.

I believe that the message and the action is where the true strength of faith lies, which is why I actually also believe that Zen practice strengthens my life and the understanding of my own beliefs. No matter who we are, we have a set of beliefs that we've taken on voluntarily or involuntarily. If you are an atheist, that is a belief; if you are not, that is a belief. Belief is the center of what makes us human.

If we think that belief is non-existent in Zen that is a fallacy because unless we have fully experienced anuttara samyak sambodhi we are practicing wholeheartedly with faith in the Buddha's and all of the Buddha ancestors teachings that it is possible to live a life like that.. a full life of compassion, etc.

So belief is central to being human. We believed the planet was flat, we believed the earth was the center of the universe. We have a lot of beliefs now that will be shattered (I hope if we don't annihilate each other over differing beliefs).

So while I do believe in God, I also believe in letting other people have their beliefs, and I actually really like listening to how other people view things. I really find it fascinating. I work with a lot of people who are Hindu and believe in multiple Gods. I really have respect for their religion. I don't find any contention with that. In fact, some of the nicest people I know follow Hinduism, and they are great people.

People are people. We have all been raised and our beliefs most certainly reflect the culture that we've come out of. There's no escaping that.

I think we just need to always remain open and not restrict people based on belief. I do not follow any religion that would call a certain people less than another people. I don't believe that it is my place to judge anyone, when I have my own shit to deal with. In fact, I don't think those are authentic faiths anyway; I think those are just egoistic power systems that try to elevate the "in-group" over the "out-group"... another very human trait that all of us do. You are stupid because you believe in God; you are stupid because you don't believe in God.

Man, this universe is so incredible, I think if we'd all just shut up and appreciate this life, we could stop fighting over shit that we can't prove or disprove.

Anyway, short answer, no offense taken. lol

Gassho,

Risho

[Kyonin]

Hi Daizan,

I'm a 100% atheist Buddhist. In my many years practicing I have never had the need to rely on any kind of gods at all.

Now perhaps what you mean is that atheist tend to be pretty hardcore religious about not believing in a god. That is not my case.

I don't think there is a god, but I'm open to be shown I'm wrong with the proper evidence.

For me Buddhism is a philosophic framework where one learns how to be free of suffering and to help all sentient beings. Having no god is actually liberating because I can focus on service, learning live without attachments. Plus, I really like Buddhist philosophy.

So being an atheist and a Buddhist is pretty compatible for me from my humanist point of view.

I believe in us humans and what we can do as species (both good and bad). Gods are irrelevant.

Gassho,

Kyonin

I do not understand how someone can practice Buddhism and be a committed theist or atheist. Aren't those the kind of ultimate positions that are undermined by sitting in openness?

It makes sense to speak from a theistic angle in one context, and an atheistic angle in another context. If I'm talking with a Christian friend it might feel right to use the language of God and Grace. If talking to a friend who is science minded, or an atheist, a different language makes sense. It makes sense to have an honest view or perspective and have passion around it, but how could that view become fixed in the mind? Staking out an absolute position might be effective politics, but is it really held absolutely?

I don't get it.


Gassho
Daizan

[Daitetsu]

Hi there,

I see one problem that people add a lot of concepts when they hear the word "Atheism". Many people think it is a philosophy or a belief.
However, Atheism does only state one thing: Not Theism.
A Theist is someone who believes in a personal god who intervenes in his creation (someone who believes in a non-interfering god would be a Deist).
Atheist simply means - "Not a Theist".
If someone says Atheism is a belief then "Non-Skiing" would be sports or "Non-Smoking" would be an addiction.
So as an Atheist one can follow all kinds of philosophies.

Then of course it depends on how one defines the term "god".
Every religion gives their god some attributes - otherwise the word god would not make sense.
Mostly he is said to be omnipotent, omniscient, infinitely good, etc. However, if you ask a Catholic and a Protestant and then a Muslim, you will hear even more different attributes...
So "god" could also mean Osiris, Thor or a god from the Greek mythology.

In his latest book Brad Warner uses the term "god" as well, but I daresay many Christian believers would disagree vehemently with his definition, even saying it has nothing to do with god at all.

Anyway, since I came to this practice I don't care anymore. I don't care how I should call myself - it's all just drawers anyway. Drawers cause separation. I don't want separation.
If I had to use a category then yes, I'd be an agnostic atheist Zen Buddhist - but who cares?
I prefer to call myself a human - loving, angry, balanced, unbalanced, humble, an arrogant asshole, sociable, shy, *fill in the blank*.

Peace to all of you, however you call yourself (or not).

Gassho,

Daitetsu

[Meikyo]

I'm totally with Kyonin here.

I specifically sought out a Sangha that could accommodate my worldview.
I get that in one sense we're all in it together and all the labels don't really matter.
On the other hand that should not mean that you don't process the information presented to you and live according to what you find. While there's a fundamental irrevocable niceness about in being in the world in general rather than not being here and it's cool if we could just get along critical faculties are indeed very much needed. They can also be overused and misused. A a sense of proportion (as with much else) is the key.

As a note on the original I can recommend Sam Harris. He's good at what he does. But whether you personally find his writing useful in your Practice is another matter. I did and his book "The End of Faith" helped me alot in reconciling atheism with Zen. But he's an academic and atheist first and foremost even though I would consider him the "softest" of the new atheist frontmen. Will read this new book in time. Thank you for the pointer.

Gassho

[RichardH]

I'm a bit surprised by this thread. Buddhism is a non-theistic religion that leaves questions about Ultimate Truth to "Noble Silence" , while warning of the extremes of eternalism and nihilism. This is the A, B fricken C's right?

There are conceptions of God or God Unmanifest as "unconditional presence", "the cloud of unknowing" and so forth that are very much like Zen conceptions of True Mind, The Absolute, Original Nature, Unconditioned , and so forth. in fact some non-Zen Buddhists say Zen has a streak pre-Buddhism Brahmanism (Theism) in its ideas.

So I'll just say again I don't get it. and leave it at that. Different strokes for different folk, Daizan

[Anshu Bryson]

Hi Daizan,

I am surprised that you are surprised that some folk who practice a non-theistic religion happen to be non-theists...

Gassho,

Bryson

[RichardH]

Hi Daizan,

I am surprised that you are surprised that some folk who practice a non-theistic religion happen to be non-theists...

Gassho,

Bryson

I'm not surprised by non-theism , I'm a non-theist which means I can swing both ways . It's the atheism that surprises.. I mean.. Jeez.

Gassho
Daizan