Lay robes: playing house?

[Byokan]

Hi All,

Which holds the true spirit of Zen - Taigu's adherence to tradition or Jundo's notion of a 'no-kesa' way? Is Jundo sitting in swim shorts more or less Zen than Jundo sitting in koromo and kesa? Nishijima Roshi in suit or tradition clothing?

In the Tibetan Kagyu tradition the first three key figures in the lineage are Marpa, Milarepa and Gampopa. Marpa was a lay householder, Milarepa a wandering ascetic clad only in a cotton shirt, Gampopa lived his life in a monastery. Which one was the true follower of the way?

Here in Alaska the birch have traded their green robes for yellow this week; soon they will cast these off and wear only their papery bark. The snowshoe hare has worn a brown robe all summer, soon will don the white. And the mountain will trade its purple and green for the majestic blue and white robe of winter. All in good time and according to each in their own element.

Gassho
Lisa

[Ongen]

The snowshoe hare has worn a brown robe all summer, soon will don the white.

Well I guess it's not a proper snowshoe hare anymore then, is it?

I'll be sewing a Rakusu soon. Whether I'll actually wear it, or mostly when, I don't know yet. Does wearing it change anything? I guess not. And yet it does.
If I would wear it for 'myself' there would be no need. If I would wear it for others, there would be no need either.

Mind boggling...

gassho

Vincent

[Ishin]

Resounds of a Koan to leap through!

Master Basho said to his disciples, "If you have the staff, I will give it to you. If you have no staff, I will take it away from you!"

"If you have a robe, I will give it to you. If you have no robe, I will take it away from you!"

Gassho, J

This pretty much sums it up for me.

My wife and I discuss the issues of dress codes at schools all the time. We are personally in favor of it. You have kids coming to school in athletic clothes baggy pants, inappropriate t-shirts, even the teachers have gotten lax with how they present themselves wearing jeans and t-shirts some days. It all lacks a certain sense of professionalism. You wouldn't wear a business suit to the beach, nor a bathing suit to the job interview. When at the Skyclad Zendo you might want to take a bath before zazen. As Lisa mentioned, all things in their season. I respect the fact that we shouldn't necessarily be rigid in the way we practice. Sometimes sitting on a busy street is a good practice. Being able to sit in any attire, is ideal. Yet, I am finding with many of our traditions there is a reason for them that is not just nipponery or arbitrary. A wedding dress is expensive too, and usually only worn once. But, does it not add a certain something special to the occasion?

Gassho
C

[Mp]

Here in Alaska the birch have traded their green robes for yellow this week; soon they will cast these off and wear only their papery bark. The snowshoe hare has worn a brown robe all summer, soon will don the white. And the mountain will trade its purple and green for the majestic blue and white robe of winter. All in good time and according to each in their own element.

Very nice Lisa ... each day, each moment, each season do we not wear a curtain attire for that occasion or weather pattern. I feel that such things can set our mind/practice in the right motion and also keep us from getting soaking wet! =)

Gassho
Shingen

[Risho]

This is an awesome, awesome thread. It's a topic that I think about a lot, and I really agree with all the posts here.

I think it's a personal decision to an extent. I mean if you are at odds with what your sangha is doing, then that might not be the right fit; you can't walk into someone's house and tell them how things should be to fit your needs.

I'm a minimalist with ritual; that being said, I light a tea candle, which I place in my buddha statue for zazen during this Ango. I also wear a rakusu during zazenkai. There's an importance and richness that it adds, but that's because it has meaning to me. The rakusu also represents my ties with Treeleaf, so it is very sacred to me; I feel a kinship to everyone and a deep sense of gratitude for having this practice shared with me when wearing it. The kesa also has meaning to me.

I wear a mala during the day, but if I know that it may draw unnecessary attention, I won't wear it to public gatherings. I know it's not really Zen, but it's sort of like a rakusu I can wear in public (if it doesn't draw too much attention). I'm not wearing it to draw attention to people, like "Hey, I'm a Buddhist!" It's a symbol of sanity to me. It's a cedar wood mala necklace that supposedly has the characters of Kannon; I don't read Japanese, how do I know? lol It could really say "You silly American." hahahah But I wear it because it brings me back to sanity. I chant the meal gatha, most of the time silently. Again, this is what speaks to the heart to me.

These practices are things that we must find meaning in. Hell, when I first started sitting zazen, I thought it was weird, but it "felt" right. In fact, my wife asked me if everything was ok? I mean it's kind of odd to start this practice, especially from my house where we have faith in God, but we are nowhere overtly religious at all. Now, 5 years later, it's more like "Babe, I'm going to sit zazen." Or I might want a piece of cake, and my wife reminds me of my Ango commitment!

In any case, I'm also the type of person who will look you in the eyes, talk down to earth, I may say "dude". lol I will more likely shake your hand than Gassho, but I will Gassho during ceremonies because that is tradition. And it makes sense there. It's a respectfulness that is in accord with the ceremony.

I tend to sit zazen in my pajamas. It's hot here, so no fancy clothing for me

To me the most important part of practice is keeping it authentic for myself. Now, that may include times when I feel like incorporating things like candles, or it may not, but this is not a straightforward thing. My feelings toward ceremony tend to change.

I like the Zen phrase "Kill the Buddha" or "Don't put another head atop your own." That's where I'm very passionate. For this practice to work, it must be internalized. Now if the traditional trappings help you with that, so be it. But I feel that if I start adding too many things just because someone else did it that way, that it just becomes artificial.

HOWEVER, like Jundo said and has been articulated on this thread, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. I mean just because something feels artificial to me now, may likely mean that I'm just ignorant of its meaning, and that can be the case at times. In the vastness of this practice, I know nothing... so I try to keep an open mind about things.

I'm also a little stubborn (ok a lot stubborn) so I try to drop all that and try to understand these things before i reject them. I'm all for killing the Buddha (you know your ideas of the Buddha, or your idea to appeal to an authority), not kiling someone. I'm a thinker, I don't appeal to authority, there is no authority. However, I'm not for murdering the Buddha, which I think can happen if we just throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Gassho,

Risho

[Daiyo]

Resounds of a Koan to leap through!

Master Basho said to his disciples, "If you have the staff, I will give it to you. If you have no staff, I will take it away from you!"

"If you have a robe, I will give it to you. If you have no robe, I will take it away from you!"

Gassho, J

Could this Bible quote be a koan?

"For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him."

Matthew 13:12



Gassho,
Walter.

[MyoHo]

Hello David,

This came up on a recent thread, and I said (just my opinion on this, by the way, and to each their own heart) ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?12654-Robe-question

This is also related to how much of "Traditional Stuff" we wish to keep and how much to toss away, and how "Chinese/Japanese" one needs to be. Time for my perennial post on ... TURNING JAPANESE!

======================================

This practice is not limited to any place or time ... we drop all thought of place and time. It certainly is not Indian, Chinese, Japanese, French or American. But, of course, we live in place and time, so as Buddhism traveled over the centuries from India to China, Japan, Korea and other places, it naturally became very Indian/Chinese/Japanese/Korean etc.

But what of the cultural trappings?

Must we bow, ring bells, chant (in Japanese, no less), wear traditional robes, have Buddha Statues, burn incense? ... All that stuff besides Zazen. Are they necessary to our Practice?


No, not at all!


We don't need anything other than Zazen, any of those trappings. In fact, they are no big deal, of no importance, when we drop all viewpoints in sitting Zazen.

On the other hand, we have to do something, to greet each other somehow, read some words, dress some way. Why not do such things? As I often say, for example, we have to do something with our hands when practicing walking Zazen ... why not hold them in Shashu (I mean, better than sticking 'em in your pockets)? What is more, wearing certain special clothes and holding one's hands with a certain formality, placing a statue and burning incense can all work as points of focus to remind us of the specialness of this moment and Practice (no problem so long as we also learn the lesson that all the so-called "mundane" instants of life, great and small, are special moments, each a "sacred ceremony" in its way, from taking a bath to making a peanut butter sandwich for the kids).

As well, there are parts of our practice which we do BECAUSE we resist (for example, when visiting a temple for Retreat, I usually put my heart fully into ceremonies and arcane rituals BECAUSE I resist and think some of it silly or old fashioned). Ask yourself where that kind of resistance is to be found (here's a clue, and it is right behind your own eyes).

What is more, there is method to the madness, and many (not all) customs have centuries of time tested benefits ... embody subtle perspectives ... that support and nurture Zazen Practice at the core. Many parts of our Practice, though "exotic", are worth keeping, even if they strike someone as strange at first. Bowing, statues, rigid decorum in the Zen Hall and, yes, weird talks about Koans and arcane ceremonies all fit in that category. They may seem like unnecessary "Japanese" or "Esoteric" elements at first, until you understand the role they serve. I have given talks on all these things recently, for example ... the humility and wholeness of Bowing.

Many aspects of tradition can be seen in new ways when the barriers of the mind are knocked down. Thus, for example, the Kesa, the Buddha's Robes ... though just cloth ... can be seen to cover and enfold the whole universe, laughter, cries of pain, old age, becoming and fading away ... life ...

On the other hand again, it is okay to abandon or reject many practices. However, KNOW very well what you are rejecting before you reject it.

Absorb what is useful and discard the rest. For example, I think Oryoki [formal meal ritual] is a great practice, and worth keeping.. Same for bowing.

When tasted as such ... every action and gesture in this life is Sacred and Magical when experienced as such, from changing a baby diaper to cooking dinner to chanting the Heart Sutra. So, why not Chant as well as the rest?

Some things I keep out of respect for TRADITION [the robes, the ways of doing some ceremonies]. It is important to keep ties to where we come from. Some things also have a special symbolic meaning if you look into them, so worth keeping [for example, a Rakusu]

But other stuff, no need to keep: For example, I usually avoid to chant in Japanese or Chinese [except once in awhile, out of respect for tradition]. Tatami mats and Paper screens have nothing to do with Zen practice particularly [but I happen to live in an old Japanese building, so ... well, tatami and paper screens!} Some things I think are just dumb (except symbolically), like the Kyosaku stick. Incense is great, until it was recently shown to cause cancer. Many beliefs of Buddhism are rather superstitious things that were picked up here and there. I abandon many of those.

The outer wrap of Zen Buddhism is changing greatly as it moves West. The greater emphasis on lay practice over monastics, the greater democracy in what was a feudal institution (arising in societies where the teacher's word was law ... oh, those were the days! ), giving the boot to a lot of magico-supersticio hocus-pocus bunkum, the equal place of women ... heck, the use of the internet to bring teachings that were once the preserve of an elite few into everyone's living room.Those are good and great changes to the outer wrapping (you can read about them in books like this one (author interview here: http://atheism.about.com/library/boo...olemanChat.htm). The coreless core, however, remains unchanged.

Do not throw out the Baby Buddha with the bath water. Many completely "Japanese" practices which seem silly at first are worth keeping. ...

... other things, like some of the arcane incense, bell & drum filled rituals, take 'em or leave 'em.

Gassho, J

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEmJ-VWPDM4

By the way, I guess we should wear CLOTHES, although even that is optional. I sometimes mention the time I was invited to teach at the nudist Zendo in Florida ...



Gassho, Jundo

PS - Anyway, if you are sitting with other people, it is usually recommended that you wear dark (e.g., dark brown or black), patternless clothes, and loose fitting so as not to pinch the circulation. They do not have to be formal robes unless the particular Sangha group you are sitting with asks you to sit so.

PPS - At the Skyclad Zendo, you place a towel atop your Zafu. ops:

This pretty much sums it up for me.

My wife and I discuss the issues of dress codes at schools all the time. We are personally in favor of it. You have kids coming to school in athletic clothes baggy pants, inappropriate t-shirts, even the teachers have gotten lax with how they present themselves wearing jeans and t-shirts some days. It all lacks a certain sense of professionalism. You wouldn't wear a business suit to the beach, nor a bathing suit to the job interview. When at the Skyclad Zendo you might want to take a bath before zazen. As Lisa mentioned, all things in their season. I respect the fact that we shouldn't necessarily be rigid in the way we practice. Sometimes sitting on a busy street is a good practice. Being able to sit in any attire, is ideal. Yet, I am finding with many of our traditions there is a reason for them that is not just nipponery or arbitrary. A wedding dress is expensive too, and usually only worn once. But, does it not add a certain something special to the occasion?

Gassho
C

Could this Bible quote be a koan?

"For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him."

Matthew 13:12



Gassho,
Walter.

Hmmmm, same but very different.

Gassho

Myoho

[dharmasponge]

Being a Zennie?

Hi,

Enjoying reading the thread on Robes or No Robes.

Made me think, when you sit and drop all, are you still aware of the tradition? Do you feel an aura of 'Zen/Japan/Dogen/......Sushi' around you?



I'm serious though, is there a subtle attachment to tradition?

I know when I was practicing in the Theravadin tradition there was a palpable sense of all things Thai/Colourful Shrines/Pali Chants etc....

Could you happily practice Zen in Thailand?

_/|\_

[Jundo]

Sure.

"Zen" was born when Indian Buddhism came in contact with various Taoist and other Chinese/Japanese spices, now with Western spices added ...

But, free of thoughts of here and there and this and that, one may Practice on the moon or under the sea (assuming a proper oxygen supply, of course) or both at once and everyplace AT ONCE. I do not usually sit feeling "Japanese" or "Dogen", and I just sit.

By the way, would you mind if I merged this thread into the Robes thread? They feel like they go together.

Gassho, Jundo

[Entai]

I typically sit in a comfy pair of shorts or yoga-style pants. However, I wear a robe for Zazenkai. It's a personal preference. That's the only time I burn incense as well. Why? I guess it helps me to connect to the tradition and to the ancestors. I understand that it's not "necessary" for practice. Neither is the incense, chanting, bowing, statues, Rakusu, etc. Liturgy isn't a necessity, but then we should ask why we gassho. These are personal lines to draw. Better or worse, I wouldn't know.

Gassho, Entai

[Monsho]

I ask similar questions the several times a year I have to participate in a university commencement ceremony: why am I standing in twenty-first century Ohio dressed in black gown, a silk and velvet hood, and a ridiculous hat like a medieval doctor of divinity? (And let me tell you . . . did someone say $200 for a koromo? A bargain!).

I think my own answer for both academic and zen robes is similar, too: it goes beyond merely “playing a role” to change your own perception of yourself or others’ of you. For me, the putting on of the robes is an embodiment of the tradition rather than only a representation. This doesn’t mean that when I take them off, I give up the role (I still get to blather on about the stuff I’m supposed to know something about when I’m not wearing an academic gown), nor does putting them on make me any more knowledgeable (disappointingly, I might add). But something larger than myself that is not me, but that is something of which I’m a part, shows up in that moment.

But I’m off to teach right now in my shirt-sleeves. And this morning I sat zazen in my pajamas and a T-shirt.

Gassho,
Monsho.

[dharmasponge]

No not at all Jundo _/|\_

[pinoybuddhist]

I wear a black track suit for my current sitting practice; it provides me all the comfort and utility I need for the moment. But I 'get' the 'dress-ups'...

I have been a martial arts practitioner for some time; in part of my practice (a 'contemporary' method) I train in shorts, in the other (a more 'traditional' method) I train in a 'keiko-gi' (training uniform; looks much like the samu-e. In fact it pretty much is a version of the same 'dress'). My colleagues in the contemporary method talk about me being a 'pyjama wearer' but while they think that they are rejecting tradition, they don't realize that they have created an attachment to that rejection. For me, I can go either way. But, the ritual involved in getting dressed provides a focus for my practice. The uniformity means that all of us on the floor are equal, without concern for what anyone else is wearing. Even after practice, this continues; the proper folding of the keiko-gi marks an end to the practice, again focuses the mind, and highlights the work we have done. Training in shorts and kicking a bag is an athletic endeavour; wearing the gi and performing a 'kata' (a formalized pattern of movements) can be almost 'ritsu Zen'... Both have their purpose; both are valid. I try to reject neither.

Gassho,

Bryson

As an Aikido blackbelt, I practice while wearing a hakama over my gi. For those who don't know a hakama is a kind of large pleated divided skirt/baggy pants traditionally worn over men's kimono. It's part of tradition in some dojos for the black belts to wear it. It's also a pain in the ass to put on, and a pain in the ass to take it off and fold it properly so as to preserve the pleats. Many of my fellow blackbelts would rather not wear it although they sometimes do. I make it a point of wearing it every practice. For me, it is part of my Aikido training to put on the hakama, and take it off and fold. And as I explained to a few students, it is precisely because it's a pain in the ass that I practice it. At the very least, it's good training for patience and paying attention - and I know I want to practice those.

As for zazen, I wear pyjamas, which makes sense as I do it after I get out of bed in the morning.

Gassho,
Raf

[Joryu]

Best perhaps for each of us just to follow our heart, wearing and doing what seems best and most appropriate in the circumstances. When wearing formal robes and a funny hat, just do that thoroughly. When wearing a business suit or bermuda shorts, just be that thoroughly -Jundo

- nandi

[Ed]

I love my robe. Putting it on is like when the a/c kicks on, totally cool. At home I wear pants to deal with "the grave matter" at hand.
In my group the core wear it, or black samu-e's. We all wear black. Never questioned why. It isn't so much tradition as uniformity in a very individual world.
Kinhin is very very very slow...a continuation of zazen even if not totally so.
We practice Soto Zen Buddhism. No elightenment here, nothing added, just this.