Question about the emptiness of perception (a bit philosophical - sorry)

[Jundo]

Thank you for the answer.

But - and i'm conscious that i'm falling in the "nihilistic trap" of emptiness here - if all there is is a big whole dance in which no one really takes part, why do anything to dance better ? Why love other dancers ?

In other terms, why would i want to change a world which is not real, and in which i have no "real" possibility of action at all ?

Who say there is nothing to do? If you do not dance, there is no dancing (or, at least, your part in it!). If you do not dance well, you trip and fall. We love other dancers because that brings love into the show.

Yes, Buddhism drops thoughts of "better and worse". But at the same time, we DO NOT drop thoughts of "better" and "worse" (only seems like a contradiction) and thus should work as we can to make this world and our self (not two, by the way) better as we can.

Yes, kind of we are not "real". But, who says we are not real? (more non-contradiction!) Your "3" is getting closer, your "4" is the best means there right now.

Close your eyes, clear your heart, cut the cord ... Are we human or are we dancer?

Gassho, J

PS ...

The only things that puzzles me is: if there is no self, then "WHO" dances? "WHO" ceases attaching?

Who? Yes, WHO!!! Go wash your bowls. (There are actually many famous Koans like this "Who is it who hears?" "Who chants the Buddha's name?") Yes, WHO!!!

SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: WHAT'S WHAT

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?8810-SIT-A-LONG-with-JUNDO-WHAT-S-WHAT

I end up dropping everything, and "just sitting" out of tiredness, because it's our practice, feels good, and one can do no harm while just sitting.
But don't know if that's the right motivation for "just sitting".

Fine, and you may even find out WHO!!! in the course of sitting so.

[Ugrok]

Thanks again, it helps a lot.

This morning in zazen i think i understood what bothers me in all this. It is the fear of losing myself, this "I", and the fear of being totally alone. This fear is based on a misunderstanding of emptiness. I still cannot understand it correctly it seems. For me, it's either that everything i see is an illusion, so that would mean the world as i see it is all in my head, which makes it kind of lonely ; or that there is a definite separation between me and the rest of the world, which is another form of loneliness. But all of a sudden i remembered what Jundo said about the inside/outside flow earlier and for a moment i felt - with a tremendous relief that almost brought tears to my eyes - that everything is in constant flow, in constant contact, and so, there is no NOTHING, there is no void of separation in which to fall. Yet, well, there is a separation. Because "I" am typing right now. Nobody else. I am typing on a keyboard. I and the keyboard are separate ; but at the same time the only way i can interact with the keyboard is "flow" and "contact", wether it is by vision, by touch, etc...

Which leads me to think that this "I", as much as everything else, exists in the way that everything else exists : in constant flow and in constant contact. So there is separation, but this separation is itself constant flow and constant contact. So there is no separation. But there is.

Ok, turning myself to the psych ward, ill be back in a few years.

[Jishin]

Hi Ugrok,

After this Zen business started, I used to have dreams that I was all alone in the universe and the dreams were disturbing enough for me to remember them. I don't usually remember my dreams. The subject also came up in Zazen. Then it went away. Don't know what to make out of it.

Gassho, Jishin

[Ugrok]

Ahah, Jishin, to be honest this is not the first time that it arises in my practice and my life as well. From time to time, this question comes - usually at times in my life when things are not easy, not sure, not fixed, which is the case right now. Then it leaves. Then, it seems, it comes back. Sometimes i wonder if this is not a tricky way of my mind to just think of deep philosophy instead of tending to my "real life" "issues", because there are moments in which those questions are not disturbing in the least.
I must say i'm glad i found this sangha to discuss it with people - and a "real" teacher - who went/go through this as well.

Gassho, Ugrok

[Daiyo]

Fine, and you may even find out WHO!!! in the course of sitting so.

Thanks Jundo.

Today I sat with that.
At some point, I got the feeling that I needed to "let life pass through me" or "let life live me" or something.
Trying to put that feeling or idea in words now, makes me understand how difficult it is to use words to explain that kind of experiences.
It feel so clumsy trying to express that.

But that "image" "idea" "feeling" or whatever makes it easier to drop everything else, at least while upon the zafu.
Now I guess the work is sitting to find out how to keep at that when I rise from the zafu.

Gassho,
Walter

[Jundo]

Thanks again, it helps a lot.

This morning in zazen i think i understood what bothers me in all this. It is the fear of losing myself, this "I", and the fear of being totally alone. This fear is based on a misunderstanding of emptiness. I still cannot understand it correctly it seems. For me, it's either that everything i see is an illusion, so that would mean the world as i see it is all in my head, which makes it kind of lonely ; or that there is a definite separation between me and the rest of the world, which is another form of loneliness. But all of a sudden i remembered what Jundo said about the inside/outside flow earlier and for a moment i felt - with a tremendous relief that almost brought tears to my eyes - that everything is in constant flow, in constant contact, and so, there is no NOTHING, there is no void of separation in which to fall. Yet, well, there is a separation. Because "I" am typing right now. Nobody else. I am typing on a keyboard. I and the keyboard are separate ; but at the same time the only way i can interact with the keyboard is "flow" and "contact", wether it is by vision, by touch, etc...

Which leads me to think that this "I", as much as everything else, exists in the way that everything else exists : in constant flow and in constant contact. So there is separation, but this separation is itself constant flow and constant contact. So there is no separation. But there is.

Ok, turning myself to the psych ward, ill be back in a few years.

In our way, one -does not- drop into some nihilistic hole where the self is lost and nothing remains. Saying that life has aspects of being like a dream -does not- mean nothing is real. Snap out of it!

If anything, one realizes the wonderfully whole and affirming nature of life and oneself as affirmed. Life is a beautiful dream, so row row row your boat!

You are overthinking and analyzing things! Please stop convincing yourself of this or that in your mind. Just Sit in Wholeness of the moment, see what comes of it.

Gassho, J

[Ugrok]

I'll do this. Thank you again.

[Jundo]

My too simple way of explaining the Heart Sutra, Nagarjuna and Emptiness is this: In the brain, from data flowing in through the senses from outside (really, inside and outside are one great loop), we create images of the "world out there" and "our self here". The world and our self are seen as rather separate, rather permanent or abiding objects in our mind which we then go on to label, categorize and stick judgments on about what this is a cause of that, what things we like or dislike, what we love or fear or are indifferent too. (Actually, this is necessary ... because we need to do so in order to live and survive in this world. We could not function without doing so. Where am I going to put the coffee I love without a cup? One would also burn one's hand on the stove if one disregarded the reality of the fire!)

A not-particularly Buddhist friend sent me the following little clip today. The speaker is an evolutionary psychologist explaining something of a mainstream modern scientific model of how the brain creates a virtual sense of "self" and consciousness between the ears. The fellow, as an evolutionary psychologist, is very focused on how this is a product of evolution and neurons. That is not really the topic we are discussing (and a rather narrow way to look at the question if you ask me), but his description of the mind's creation of a "holo-deck" version of the self and world between the ears is perfectly harmonious with what the Buddhists have said for thousands of years.

Is consciousness real? Could it be just an illusion manufactured in the theatre of our minds? And what use is it – why did it evolve in the first place? Professor Nicholas Humphrey explores the mystery.in this film from the Royal Institution

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHXCi6yZ-eA

Buddhist meaning of "Mind" (Big "M"), by the way, is something much much wider in meaning than just what is produced between our ears by the brain (as he is speaking of in the film). What is outside us (assuming, of course, that there is something "out there") is seen or touched and flows in through the senses, is next processed and experienced between the ears, and thereupon results in our thoughts, words and actions back out to the world ... all of which can also be encountered as actually one great feedback LOOP, each dependent on the other for the creation of the whole of "reality" as our experience of the world (and the world's simultaneously being experienced and acted upon by us) ... outside flowing in and inside thereupon acting and flowing out ... so much so that one cannot even speak really of "Mind" as merely "inside" or "outside". In fact, "Mind" is a great inter-flowing inter-acting Whole of inside-outing and outside-ining! The world apparently "outside us", and our experience of "self" somehow "inside us" can be transcended in the Great Dance, and is Mind.



Thus, in Zazen, perhaps we might say that we encounter such whereby separation of self/other is only one way to see life, and whereby the hard borders may sometimes soften or fully fade away ...



... sometimes written by old Zen folks rather like this ...



However, PLEASE DO NOT MERELY PHILOSOPHIZE ABOUT THIS. Rather, get on the cushion and learn to be so in the bones!

Gassho, J

[Nameless]

Gassho, John

[Ugrok]

Thanks a lot !

When sitting, it is quite simple and good. But when thinking about it, it really tangles my mind...

[Jundo]

Thanks a lot !

When sitting, it is quite simple and good. But when thinking about it, it really tangles my mind...

Many aspects of life are so. If thinking to much about bike riding while riding, which foot should move where and how to stay on the seat ... one may well fall over!

If thinking to much about making love when making love, about appreciating a rose one sees or a symphony one is hearing, if thinking to distraction about the fact that one exists on this planet while existing on the planet ... one may miss what is right here. Just Sit.

Gassho, J

[Anshu Bryson]

The most significant part for me of the clip Jundo posted was this: "Consciousness feeds our self-worth, our joy in life, our fear of death. And, especially, it increases our respect for the other conscious beings we live alongside…"

In other words, the more conscious we become, the more compassionate we become.

Time for more sitting...

[Ongen]

Hi all,

Fear of losing ones-self is only another thought really, isn't it?

Yesterday at the local zendo I ran some introductory meditation rounds for interested people, and one asked:

"but if I lose my self, I won't be bothered so much with dis-ease perhaps, but also I wouldn't be bothered too much anymore with happiness. If there's no I, there's no one to see the beauty of things and enjoy them."

The thing is, this is all just thinking, seperating the world with thoughts. There's no way to get out of that using more thinking.

If there's no I and no things to see beauty in, only beauty remains. Haha, just sit and don't worry too much would be my advice Urgok

Gassho

Vincent



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