"Mindfulness therapy comes at a high price for some" (?)

[ZenHarmony]

I came across this article on my FB feed today. Personally, I'm pretty new to "clinical" depression and I have yet to have any negative reflections arise as part of sitting so I'm not sure how to take the conclusions in the article. As far as I'm concerned, sitting simply allows one (me) to accept what is, the good, bad and the ugly, and in my opinion, that can never a bad thing.

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/aug/25/mental-health-meditation

Curious to hear the groups views on this matter,

Gassho,

Lisa

[Christopher]

hi Lisa.

I would first suggest that this is a journalism article...they are predicated on finding problems. If you could speak to the people mentioned in it you would almost certainly discover some disconnects between their actual statements and what is reported. That is without any attempt on my part to diminish their honesty, it's a matter of access and deadlines.

I have been prey to some incipient depression lately since I discovered my new problems are likely a result of having a mini-stroke this winter. I am not looking to self-medicate with meditation, but I find the sitting helps one to remember that we are products of a larger community and now have access to a caring one of our own. If the troubled person has experiences after sustained practice they were likely there to begin with and having experienced members in the Sangha to discuss them with is a better situation than the poor Brits looking for help from National Health trained 'adepts'.

If my words seem unhelpful please ignore them.

Gassho
Christopher

[jeff_u]

Hi Lisa,

I think the title of the article is a bit misleading, but the main point seems pretty obvious. When something gets commodified people will find a way to sell it-experienced or not. The practices these groups teach are usually Vipassana (breath meditation), body-scanning, and some yoga. None, at least that I'm familiar with, teach shikantaza. They are fine practices in and of themselves, but without proper guidance (and I believe the rest of the Dharma) they can be a bit like giving someone a poor map and ask them to get out of potentially hazardous terrain.

Gassho,
-Jeff

[shiloh24601]

This is an interesting subject and brings up another question - did the Buddha ever talk about what we would now label as mental illness? I know he talks about delusions and mis perceptions of the mind, but nothing that reminded me of true depression/bipolarism. Is mental illness a modern construct?

Gassho,
Shiloh

[Nameless]

Buddha talked about Dukkha a lot. Suffering because things change and misunderstanding their compounded nature. Clinging and craving can cause depression, but I'm not sure if he ever alluded to clinical depression, as in a chemical imbalance, or not. There was a time when pent up negativity started welling up while sitting and sometimes felt tension, but that's pretty much it.

Yet I've hear from a few Dharma students that meditation can worsen schizophrenic symptoms. Obsessions and delusions do sometimes accompany major depression as well. I usually recommend that they ask their doctor, and then say that zazen isn't just bound to the zafu, so maybe mindful activity would be beneficial.

Gassho, John

[Jundo]

Hi,

The article is talking about Mindfulness meditation, which (as Jeff notes) is not Shikantaza Practice. However, the following comment can apply to Shikantaza as well ...

Mindfulness experts say such extreme adverse reactions are rare and are most likely to follow prolonged periods of meditation, such as weeks on a silent retreat. ... "As awareness increases, your sensitivity to experiences increases. If someone is feeling vulnerable or is not well supported, it can be quite daunting. It can bring up grief and all kinds of emotions, which need to be capably held by an experienced and suitably trained teacher."

As with the dangers of swimming or eating a banana, some rare people will start to drown or choke. Such cases are rare, however, and do not mean that we should stop swimming or eating bananas in most cases.

For people who are very fragile, however, or who experience a great worsening of symptoms of depression or anxiety (however rare, given the generally gentle and accepting tone of Shikantaza), I believe they should break off Practice and consult the Teacher AND (depending on severity) a physician or psychological professional immediately. In most cases such events are temporary and pass on their own, but it is possible that Zazen is not appropriate to continue. ALL FOLKS WHO ARE SUFFERING FROM DEPRESSION, ANXIETY OR OTHER PSYCHOLOGICAL AND PHYSICAL CONDITIONS should be under the simultaneous care of a medical or psychological professional and follow that professional's guidance, including regarding meditation. I often post this:

Zazen is -NOT- a cure for many things ... it will not fix a bad tooth (just allow you to be present with the toothache ... you had better see a dentist, not a Zen teacher), cure cancer (although it may have some healthful effects and make one more attune to the process of chemotherapy and/or dying), etc. Zen practice will not cure your acne on your face, or fix your flat tire. All it will do is let one "be at one, and whole" ... TRULY ONE ... with one's pimples and punctured wheel, accepting and embracing of each, WHOLLY WHOLE with/as each one. There are many psychological problems or psycho/medical problems such as alcoholism [depression, etc.] that may require other therapies, although Zen can be part of the total treatment. My feeling is that some things are probably best handled by medical, psychological or psychiatric treatment, not Zen teachers.

This is an interesting subject and brings up another question - did the Buddha ever talk about what we would now label as mental illness? I know he talks about delusions and mis perceptions of the mind, but nothing that reminded me of true depression/bipolarism. Is mental illness a modern construct?

Gassho,
Shiloh

Not really, no. People did not really think in such terms until modern times, and just tended to believe that such was a person's character or that they had some internal imbalance or energies or the like, or were possessed by spirits.

Mental disorders are represented in Ancient India in various types of literature. ... Psychotherapy used to be in the form of talismans, charms, prayers & sleeping in temples with rituals. The indigenous manner of giving shock to the patient was terrorizing them by snakes, lions, elephant or men dressed as bandits. Then use of 10 to 100 years old medicated ghee, Drugs Cordfolia, horse radish (shigru) with asafetida & rock salt, centella Asiatic (brami) with catechu & honey & powder of roots of serpentine were widely used. ...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3146221/

Gassho, J

[Entai]

As someone who suffers from mental illness (bipolar disorder), I don't see meditation (shikantaza) as a "remedy". I think some breathing techniques and cognitive therapy can be helpful for anxiety, etc. In a way they resemble practice, being based on actual experience other than deluded thinking. But our practice isn't "aimed" at making us happy or cheerful. Happiness can be a "side-effect", which is nice, but it's not the point of our practice. I do, however, find that therapy and zen practice compliment each other. As stated, anything has the potential for ill effects. It's best to know where that line is. Practice in the healthiest way possible. Follow the advice of a good doctor or therapist. Know your limits.
Just my two cents.
Gassho, Entai

[Entai]

Oh, and I think this line from the article speaks volumes : "MBCT is commonly taught in groups in an eight-week programme and courses sell out fast."

[Jundo]

As someone who suffers from mental illness (bipolar disorder), I don't see meditation (shikantaza) as a "remedy". I think some breathing techniques and cognitive therapy can be helpful for anxiety, etc. In a way they resemble practice, being based on actual experience other than deluded thinking. But our practice isn't "aimed" at making us happy or cheerful. Happiness can be a "side-effect", which is nice, but it's not the point of our practice. I do, however, find that therapy and zen practice compliment each other. As stated, anything has the potential for ill effects. It's best to know where that line is. Practice in the healthiest way possible. Follow the advice of a good doctor or therapist. Know your limits.
Just my two cents.
Gassho, Entai

Hi Entai,

You are correct. Our Shikantaza Way should not be sat as a "remedy" or "therapy". It fact, it is a radical allowing and embracing of "just what is" as a sacred fact. We should not sit with the intend or need to "make things better".

But that being said, this "radical allowing" and abandoning of all need for change can ... just by the power of radical allowing ... work some big changes and make things better! Strange how that works! I would not practice if it did not make life a whole lot better! We do not sit to reduce "stress" for example ... but, gosh, radical acceptance and allowing sure tends to help with stress!

I would also assume (anecdotal evidence here ... I am not a doctor, nor do I even play one on TV) that the radical allowing, dropping of entanglements in thoughts, not buying into the "thought/emotion storms" and theatre of the mind so easily, and "go with the flowness" of it all ... HAS to have some beneficial effects on all manner of disorders from depression (especially the kind based on overthinking dark thoughts) anxiety, fears and compulsions and the like.

I do not believe it to be a cure (sometimes it might be for the mild this or that), but certainly Shikantaza can go hand in hand with standard psychological and medical treatments as a complement.

I do not think that Shikantaza can cure cancer or even a flat tire ... but I think it can help with many things.

Gassho, J

[Jishin]

I second Entai and Jundo.

Gassho, Jishin

[Daiyo]

I do not think that Shikantaza can cure cancer or even a flat tire ... but I think it can help with many things.

Gassho, J

But surely it helps us determine to see a doctor or change the tyre!

Gassho,
Walter.