A Discussion About Race, Gender and Class

[Daijo]

I don't know. I find the Soka Gokai group to be "pretty elitist" as well. The Soka Gokais near me are from the wealthiest most affluent area in the county. And the Pure Land Church of New York is on Riverside Drive, where the wealthiest people in the world live. There are Zen Centers in the South Bronx and Yonkers. I also think, Zen does have something to offer, and not everyone, especially people living in very harsh realities, are looking for pie in the sky solutions. I grew up in a harsh environment, spent a good part of my life homeless, was involved in some pretty heavy and violent stuff, and from that I grew very skeptical of "faith based" solutions to problems. I think zen offers a real answer to cutting through the bullshit, and I believe that's accessible to people of all walks of life.

Just my opinions of course. And my opinions and $2.75 will get me on the subway.

[alan.r]

I don't know. I find the Soka Gokai group to be "pretty elitist" as well. The Soka Gokais near me are from the wealthiest most affluent area in the county. And the Pure Land Church of New York is on Riverside Drive, where the wealthiest people in the world live. There are Zen Centers in the South Bronx and Yonkers. I also think, Zen does have something to offer, and not everyone, especially people living in very harsh realities, are looking for pie in the sky solutions. I grew up in a harsh environment, spent a good part of my life homeless, was involved in some pretty heavy and violent stuff, and from that I grew very skeptical of "faith based" solutions to problems. I think zen offers a real answer to cutting through the bullshit, and I believe that's accessible to people of all walks of life.

Just my opinions of course. And my opinions and $2.75 will get me on the subway.

It might be accessible, but that doesn't mean that people know that such access is even available. I think there is a very real, well, difficulty of "white buddhism" in the US. It's cool that Treeleaf is wonderfully inclusive and has people from all over the globe and different ethnicities, but one striking thing is this: all the places I've practiced at, including Treeleaf, I don't think I've practiced with one black American male or female. That seems odd, especially for the place I live in.

In any case though, you are then, in my humble and limited opinion, the exact sort of person who could, potentially, spread zen stuff to others in situations like yours. Because you can connect and share based on similar experiences. I think what others are saying is totally valid: coming to zen practice, even from a white, educated, middle-class situation was a kind of leap for me. It was not a huge leap, though, because I'd already studied it in school and had a general interest in it. I imagine it being a much larger leap for someone who's never really had such access/opportunity. So, someone to help familiarize like yourself seems like a pretty good idea.

Just a few thoughts. Good discussion.

Gassho

[RichardH]

The single minded obsession to find out what this is, that existential intensity, and the sense of birthright that I can realize it... that is not typical. These qualities isolated me as a kid. It was like having a different kind of brain. Just yesterday there was a big storm, a supercell with a slowly rotating base, sitting right over midtown. It was awesome beyond words.... and no one looked up!. I stood there on the street taking this in and paying attention to the busy corner, and no one looked up. There is a sensitivity to the sublime, an aliveness to the vital mystery of sheer existence, that is behind my devotion to the dharma. One reason I need sangha is to be with "my own kind" in that away. It is not about being elite, but is about not walking this endless journey of discovery alone.

Gassho Daizan

[Daijo]

It might be accessible, but that doesn't mean that people know that such access is even available. I think there is a very real, well, difficulty of "white buddhism" in the US. It's cool that Treeleaf is wonderfully inclusive and has people from all over the globe and different ethnicities, but one striking thing is this: all the places I've practiced at, including Treeleaf, I don't think I've practiced with one black American male or female. That seems odd, especially for the place I live in.

And here lays the problem. The truth is, there are different Americas. though we live in the same country and fly the same flag, we experience completely different existences. Unfortunately we don't all understand each other, because our perspectives are so different. This is why the teachers, of any practice or religion, need to be from the same world that the student lives and breathes in.

I do believe Zazen has the potential to transform lives. I don't think it will be transmitted across cultural and class structural lines easily though, without empowerment/transmission between the right teachers/students. I think the recognition of who the potential teachers are is the key.

Gassho,

Daijo

[Daijo]

The single minded obsession to find out what this is, that existential intensity, and the sense of birthright that I can realize it... that is not typical. These qualities isolated me as a kid. It was like having a different kind of brain. Just yesterday there was a big storm, a supercell with a slowly rotating base, sitting right over midtown. It was awesome beyond words.... and no one looked up!. I stood there on the street taking this in and paying attention to the busy corner, and no one looked up. There is a sensitivity to the sublime, an aliveness to the vital mystery of sheer existence, that is behind my devotion to the dharma. One reason I need sangha is to be with "my own kind" in that away. It is not about being elite, but is about not walking this endless journey of discovery alone.

Gassho Daizan

This is existence from your perspective, and you are perhaps just as incapable of perceiving the awesomeness beyond words sensation of the projects in Harlem. Our perceptions and experiences are different, but we aren't elite or special for having them, we're all just looking at different illusions.

Gassho,

Daijo

[Joyo]

[QUOTE=Jundo;135427
I believe that sometimes we need to give a fish, sometimes to teach a man to fish ... sometimes we need to rescue a drowning man ... and sometimes we need to teach a man to be as Free and Boundless as the Ocean ...

Gassho, J[/QUOTE]


Thank you, Jundo, for your very wise words. I am taking this into consideration as I ponder my own Ango commitments this year.

Gassho,
Joyo

[Hans]

Hello,

though I agree with the general spirit of most posters in this thread, my life experience so far (albeit limited and totally subjective) has also taught me that too much availability can often have the exact opposite effect one intends. People are different, many of them will not be able to see the worth of something unless it is a bit hard to get.

I remember my days in another religious sub culture many years ago....which was trying so hard to make everything available to everyone that it only led to the lowest common denominator in different scenarios...which in turn led to some people completely moving away. There is no perfect solution IMHO, just a question of how one wants to position oneself.

Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

[RichardH]

This is existence from your perspective, and you are perhaps just as incapable of perceiving the awesomeness beyond words sensation of the projects in Harlem. Our perceptions and experiences are different, but we aren't elite or special for having them, we're all just looking at different illusions.

Gassho,

Daijo

Could be. Could be not. There was a choice made to engage the discipline of sitting practice, under the guidance of a teacher(s).. and to realize cessation first hand. It took many years, and was/is an atypical effort. It is an atypical thing to do, or even consider doing, but it does not entail dwelling in a specialness.

I honor people who devote themselves to practice. It is the bowl floating upstream...eh? I bow to the lineage and have no interest in a Buddhism that is whatever we wish it to be. Treeleaf is a good balance it seems. I respect Jundo and can even shut up and listen to him.

Daizan
Gassho

[alan.r]

Hello,

People are different, many of them will not be able to see the worth of something unless it is a bit hard to get.

Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

Certainly this, too.

Gassho

[Daijo]

Well I'm certainly not interested in or encouraging in anyway that we should prosthelytize zazen. I'm not even saying that it would work for everyone. In fact I think for may people it could be very dangerous. What I am saying is that we shouldn't isolate ourselves into a practice for "douchey white liberal Buddhists". I think we do risk becoming "elitists" even if it is, and I believe it is, unintentional. If there are people who have a general interest and a basic comprehension level required to practice Zazen, then arent we doing a disservice by putting up cultural and financial barriers? That's all I'm trying to get at, removing the barriers. I'm not saying these barriers exist so much at treeleaf, I'm speaking of the practice in general.

[Daiyo]

Interesting topic.
One can certainly learn from you all.

I come from a worker family, lower middle class in a "third world" country always cycling through financial problems.
In Argentina, Zen seems to be still small in number of practitioners and centers. I think there are no more than 10 or 15 zen centers in Buenos Aires, Córdoba and all the biggest cities.
But I have the impression that the composition of the bigger zen centers is pretty similar to what you can see in the US.
The retreats tend to be expensive (I cannot afford them mostly, be it for the fees or for the days off work, which otherwise I would have to substract from my family holidays) and for what I could see, the people attending is, too, from an upper middle-class majority. Maybe independent professionals.
That applies also to another flavors of Buddhism like the S.N Goenka Vipassana Meditation Centers. But that's just an impression, I do not have a lot of experience nor statistics.

Anyway, I think that Treeleaf is making a great effort to be inclusive in many ways and achieves it.
Thanks to Jundo's vision, many of us, workers, parents, with limited posssibilities to go to zendos or attend retreats, can share the experience.
And I have sat several zazenkais offline and the experience is not that different that when I go to the local zendo.
I also share more with people here than inthe local zendo, partly because I go there only since a couple of months ago, and partly because I just see them for about two hours a week, and one and a half is spent sitting zazen.

Having in mind that for example in Latin America there is a vast number of "third world" countries, that they mostly speak spanish and that most people from the lower classes do not speak english, perhaps you could consider in some future planning to extend Treeleaf experience to spanish speaking people.

Just an idea. I do not know about any other experience like this in spanish.
I feel fortunate of speaking english, and that gave me the opportunity to be here practicing and learning, which I am inmensely grateful for.

Gassho,
Walter.

[Yugen]

A Discussion About Race, Gender and Class

This is a good thread.... Lets introduce some non white guy perspectives into the conversation - I recommend the writing of Bell Hook and Zenju Earthlyn Manuel for black/feminist/womanist/Buddhist perspectives. Zenju was ordained by Blanche Hartman (speaks to Daijo's point that Zen must take root in different non-white/elite communities of experience). Well worth looking at - I am certainly being challenged in my worldview on matters of society, race and zen. Zen is very male and patriarchal. Female ancestors are still overlooked and/or minimized - there are entire dimensions of experience and practice that I am ignorant of. Progress has been made in certain lineages but much remains to be done.

It would be very cool to have Zenju Manuel give a talk at Treeleaf (idea).....

http://zenju.org/

Deep bows
Yugen

[Jinyo]

Thank you to everyone for this thread ! I love the openess and willingness to discuss really important issues.

There are so many aspects to this discussion that's it's hard to know where to begin - and I certainly don't have any concrete answers.

Just off the top of my head I would question whether people essentially need to come from the same backgrounds /race/ class/ etc to understand each other. I come from a working class background but have benefited from a good education and trained as a psychotherapist. I worked for many years in a prison. I experienced no barrier to a shared understanding. Words are only a barrier if we make it so. I believe it's possible to convey buddhist/zen principles if we take care with our words. It's a big and exciting challenge really.

I think the mistake lies in being fearful of change - change isn't about trashing tradition - it's more accepting that language is endlessly creative and gives us the opportunity to express our practice in new and accessible ways.

Thanks again,

Gassho

Willow

[Nindo]

Yugen, thanks for the link.

I was fortunate to spend a week in retreat co-led by Sister Pannavati, a "black female Buddhist monk" (quoting her website). She was truly remarkable. Please check her out. She is running several social projects in the US and India.

[RichardH]

Feeling drawn back to this thread again.. there are just a couple of things.

It is very fine to want to accommodate differences based on ethnicity and gender. But please do not forget the baseless and really unfortunate generalizing that is a subtext here. Who are you? Are you a type? This idea of privileged White Liberals is a caricature. I have suffered poverty, lived on the street, saw my father die penniless. (I'll talk about it sometime). I dealt drugs at 17 to survive, and have a two year black out period. No one is a stereotype or should be reduced to some picture of a lifestyle. No one.

Second.. the Four Noble Truths, sitting upright, these basic things are no different for a woman or a man, a person of Chinese decent, or European. Buddhism started with an Indian, and has passed through every Asian ethnicity before landing here. So.. Identity politics will hopefully be put aside on the cushion, in the simple act of sitting.

It feels like Treeleaf is at a wonderful moment of rebirth and possibility. I hope there will be more woman taking ordination. That would be terrific.

Ok. that's all. gassho