How do we know....

[Jundo]

Hi Jundo,

Oops, I worded that badly; I was not talking about Kensho, although I see that my words could be taken that way. I agree that Kensho is very much over-emphasized by many.


I am a get-it-done kind of girl, and I think actions are paramount. When I said “rock your world”, I was not referring to a fireworky explosion of Kensho. I meant that even the slightest glimpse of the dropping off, of the space between thoughts, of the non-duality, however tiny and fleeting, will affect you. Even if you only catch a whiff, see the edge of a shadow of it, you won’t forget it, even if you never see it or feel it again. You may find that it changes your feeling about the world and the people around you. Your world will be rocked, not because you are “enlightened,” but because your previous notion, of how things are, will be challenged. This will naturally express itself in your actions. And those actions will probably not be to go out and punch an old lady and rob a bank. They will probably be something like continuing to meditate, developing a devoted practice, being nicer to people, working with your selfishness and anger, etc. And my point was that those actions do not arise from “wallowing in a false sense of mental numbness.” So, going back to the original question, that's how I think you would know the difference -- by the actions that arise.


Kensho is a groovy thing, and hats off to those who get it. I’ll see your Kensho and raise you a dedicated practice of walking/working the Eightfold path, any day.

Lovely. All the passing scenery is the trip, yet those moments change us. Most vital is how we live along the way. Lovely.

Gassho, J

[Heisoku]

You want to become a buddha? There’s no need to become a buddha! Now is simply now. You are simply you. And tell me, since you want to leave the place where you are,where is it exactly you want to go?
Zazen means just sitting without even thinking of becoming buddha.
We don’t achieve satori through practice: practice is satori. Each and every step is the goal.

Something like that.

Gassho, J

So many ways of saying this simple act!

Thank you Jundo.
Gassho Heisoku

[Peacemouse]

Enough effort to keep you curious and fastidious and genuine, not so much effort that you're keeping score. Keeping score and checking your progress is something a lot of us have used as a strategy in everyday life, thinking about our lives as road of steady progression towards something. You can't really keep score in the moment of zazen, that sort of overly self-conscious 'checking in' reinforces goal-striving. Then again, just 'putting in your time' without any concern (concern, not judgement) for the authenticity of your practice is laziness.


Effort and non-effort, concern and lack thereof seem totally contradictory, but in practice, are they really? 'Did my mind and body really drop off?' Is that a useful or meaningful question?


Authentically 'bad practice' is good practice. Appreciate it!


As in all things, these are just my own orienting thoughts. It may very well be bad advice.


Chet

[Taigu]

You are it,it is not you...
This teaching from an old Chan text answers your question.

No feed back here. Never.

So how to go about it?

The whole journey is about knocking, and knocking again. Until you realize that the damn door, the bloke knocking, the noise, and the whole scenery drop.

Then...as in the very beginning.

For now, remember to forget,

Gassho


T.

[Jika]

[Rick]

Amazing thread!

Gassho,
Rick