Different ways Shikantaza is taught

[Kyosei]

Hi Elgwyn,

(...)

In his diary of his youthful travels in China, Dogen quotes his own Teacher, Ju-Ching, of saying to sit with the attention held in the palm of the left hand. (.cccc..)

How to do it in a practical way? how to "held attention" to something?

[Jundo]

Hi Jundo, I have been sitting zazen for about 2 years now. I still have the monkey mind during zazen almost all the time. I find your suggestion of "open, spacious sitting" easier to follow if I also have my attention on the breath. So while I sit, being aware of the thoughts, but trying to not get involved in daydreaming--- I focus on my breath and on letting the thoughts go. Is this a good way of doing it, or do you have any suggestions?

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today (again with a racing monkey mind)

Hi Joyo,

Yes, this is fine. It is a traditional way to Practice, as discussed earlier in this thread. Other teachers may say to return to the breath, the posture, to the Hara, to straighten the spine, to hold a Koan. I would just say to move the focus from the breath to "everything and nothing in particular, open spacious awareness" from time to time, and more and more as one can. The whole world is our "object of focus". Why? I feel it makes it easier to realize that this "Zen Mind" is not something limited to a particular place on the cushion, but is something to take out into all of life. One can come to see through the whole world and all thoughts, so no particular anchor is needed eventually.

How to do it in a practical way? how to "held attention" to something?

Don't try, just do ... in a relaxed and easy way. If one tries to "hold attention", just is not it. Rather. just place the attention gently, like a feather that drifts down easily and lands gently in the palm.

However, as I said, eventually one should realize that the palm ... the Buddha Mudra ... holds the whole world and all of life. It is not a matter of it being limited to a "there", but is here there and everywhere.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Joyo]

Thank you Jundo, that is so helpful to me.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

[Rich]

Hi Joyo,

Yes, this is fine. It is a traditional way to Practice, as discussed earlier in this thread. Other teachers may say to return to the breath, the posture, to the Hara, to straighten the spine, to hold a Koan. I would just say to move the focus from the breath to "everything and nothing in particular, open spacious awareness" from time to time, and more and more as one can. The whole world is our "object of focus". Why? I feel it makes it easier to realize that this "Zen Mind" is not something limited to a particular place on the cushion, but is something to take out into all of life. One can come to see through the whole world and all thoughts, so no particular anchor is needed eventually.

Gassho, J

SatToday

]

-/\-

SAT today

[Shoki]

Jundo,
About breathing; I've heard you say that while sitting breaths can slow down to as many as 2 or 3 per minute. I've also watched some great videos by Shodo Harada Roshi who says an inhalation or exhalation should be about nine seconds. On the other hand "let the short breaths be short. Let the long breaths be long." While my breathing does slow down a bit while sitting, if I breathe 2 or 3 times a minute it feels unnatural, uncomfortable and distracting. So should I just breathe according to whatever feels natural and comfortable?

Gassho,
James
Sat Today

[Jundo]

Jundo,
About breathing; I've heard you say that while sitting breaths can slow down to as many as 2 or 3 per minute. I've also watched some great videos by Shodo Harada Roshi who says an inhalation or exhalation should be about nine seconds. On the other hand "let the short breaths be short. Let the long breaths be long." While my breathing does slow down a bit while sitting, if I breathe 2 or 3 times a minute it feels unnatural, uncomfortable and distracting. So should I just breathe according to whatever feels natural and comfortable?

Gassho,
James
Sat Today

Hi James,

Yes, just let the breathing be at its own natural pace. We try to breathe with a nice, comfortable expansion of the chest from the diaphram (so that the lungs are open). Breathe through the nose after a few deep breaths at the start of Zazen. But we do not try to force anything or keep some pace. (Shodo Harada Roshi is a wonderful Rinzai Zen Teacher, and so his perspective on using the breath may be a bit different).

However, I do find many times that, when the body-mind relaxes, the metabolism seems to quiet (and my asthma allows!), then very often the breath naturally settles around 2 or 3 breaths a minute, and it is very relaxed and comfortable.

Gassho, J

[Ugrok]

Very interesting discussion !

Finally i wonder if what shikantazen and Jundo describe is not exactly the same thing. It's the same process : wether the instruction is to let go of thoughts by focusing on an object (be it posture, breathe, open space, etc.) or to just sit without doing anything, it's the same : at one point we notice that we are taken in thoughts, and we get out. If the instruction is to focus on the breathe, we get lost in thoughts, we notice it, then we come out. If the instruction is to "just sit", we get lost in thoughts, we notice it, then we come out. Maybe the interesting common point in all this is just the very moment in which we are noticing ?

Gassho,

U sat today (no it was me !)

[Kyonin]

Hi James,

Yes breathing slows down to a nice and relaxing crawl while sitting zazen. It's perfectly natural and the same happens when we are in deep sleep. We find it distracting because we are not used to notice it!

But don't pay too much attention. If anything it means your mind and body are in deep zazen. It won't harm you and it lasts for a few minutes.

Gassho,

Kyonin
#SatToday

Jundo,
About breathing; I've heard you say that while sitting breaths can slow down to as many as 2 or 3 per minute. I've also watched some great videos by Shodo Harada Roshi who says an inhalation or exhalation should be about nine seconds. On the other hand "let the short breaths be short. Let the long breaths be long." While my breathing does slow down a bit while sitting, if I breathe 2 or 3 times a minute it feels unnatural, uncomfortable and distracting. So should I just breathe according to whatever feels natural and comfortable?

Gassho,
James
Sat Today

[Luciana]

Great discussion!

Thank you, everyone! _/\_

L.

sat2day

[Shoki]

Jundo,
Many thanks again for your thoughts. (Or non thoughts).

Gassho
Sat2day
James

[Steve Schuman]

Hello all, I am brand new here I am finding this discussion interesting. I was originally taught to follow my breath during zazen but over time I found that I will now just focus on being aware. I don't know exactly how to put it into words. I still think I just don't get lost in thought or connect with them. I connect with being aware of them. I'm not sure if I'm on the right track but I feel like what I'm reading from Jundo makes so much sense

[Kaishin]

Hello all, I am brand new here I am finding this discussion interesting. I was originally taught to follow my breath during zazen but over time I found that I will now just focus on being aware. I don't know exactly how to put it into words. I still think I just don't get lost in thought or connect with them. I connect with being aware of them. I'm not sure if I'm on the right track but I feel like what I'm reading from Jundo makes so much sense

Stick around! It will make sense soon. And then it won't make sense again. And then.... That is all part of practice.

-satToday

[Steve Schuman]

Stick around! It will make sense soon. And then it won't make sense again. And then.... That is all part of practice.

-satToday

☺️ Thank you. That makes sense. �� I plan on sticking around for as long as I can. These threads are a blessing. There is always so much to learn.
Gasho,
Steve
sat today

[Tanjin]

The interpretation that one of my teachers gives for Shikantaza is "just precisely this"...any thoughts on this particular interpretation from those more experienced with it than me?

Gasho,
Jim
#sattoday

[Jishin]

Hi Jim,

I think everybody teaches it a little different. To complicate matters, everyone does it a little different. With this in mind I just do it. But this is just my opinion.

Gassho, Jishin, _/st\_