Ānāpānasmṛti Sutra/Full Awareness of Breathing

Collapse
X
 
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • Jundo
    Treeleaf Founder and Priest
    • Apr 2006
    • 40325

    #16
    Originally posted by shikantazen
    Taigu,

    Thanks for your reply. Yes sitting Shikantaza needs great faith and dropping all questions, all need to attain.

    What I am trying to understand is the reason why breath following is such a popular recommendation by a good number of soto lineages. The conflicting teachings, each condemning the other (they say sitting straight shikantaza doesn't work while we say breath following is a waste of time and not necessary) is confusing at best.

    I understand finally what matters is what the student is drawn to but I am curious which one is the faster approach

    Gassho,
    Sam
    Taigu speaks with my tongue!

    The faster approach to ... WHAT? WHAT! Attaining "faster" a realization beyond and right through human judgments of "fast vs. slow"? A "getting there" that is reached by a radical dropping of the need to "get" or "anywhere else"? How, Sam, does one get "faster" to a place beyond and right through "here and there"?

    Different Teachers speak in different ways for the same reason that different chefs disagree on the right way to make tomato soup. The only question in the end is which recipes are tasty and which are not. Teachers who describe Shikantaza as some kind of instrument to get some where do not truly have a handle on Shikantaza in my book, for Shikantaza is a method to "get somewhere" by the radical dropping of the need to "get" (rare in our busy world of get get get) and "somewhere" (rare in our discontented world where we always looking for the answer "over there", the next book on the self-help bookshelf, and are blind to what is here there and everywhere). Only when such is fully realized does on truly "Get Somewhere"!

    I agree that some settling and balance is necessary at the start, because the beginners' head (and all our heads sometimes) can be a mess! A bit of breath following can be helpful. However, this is not about building deep concentration states or experiencing some sudden "Kensho" (although such happens too). Rather, after a time of following breath, when some clarity and balance is present ... we return to just sitting in open, spacious awareness beyond and right through all human judgments of "clarity" vs. "mess". The result is a certain Clear Illumination which shines right through/behind/beyond and precisely as the whole catastrophe of "life's mess".

    In a sense, it is unfortunate that the Harada-Yasutani-Sanbokyodan hybrid of Rinzai-Soto Practice has been so disproportionately influential in America and elsewhere, far beyond the small group it is in Japan, because it meant that their particular interpretations of aspects of Practice were also disproportionately influential as Zen came to America in the 50s, 60s and 70s. You can read more about them in the following scholar's paper. I believe that one reason that folks have become disenchanted with Zen Practice in the West is because a lot of the methods taught by them, and a lot of the "big payoffs" promised, did not pay out as was advertised in so many of the books written by their folks in the 1960's and 70s ... maybe most of the Zen books in English from that time because their group was one of the "only games in town" in those early years. They are generally nice folks (some fallen teachers in there too), but I just do not care for how they cook the soup sometimes.

    As I mention from time to time, the Harada-Yasutani Lineage, and the organization known as "Sanbokyodan" represents a unique hybrid blending of "Just Sitting" Dogen with a form of of Rinzai Koan-centered Zazen pushing hard for Kensho, e.g., by the 'Mu' Koan. The flavor comes through at times as, for example, might be felt in the first few pages here. I mention this from time to time because folks should know that there are very different approaches to Zen and Zazen, and not all "Zen" is of the same flavor (just the same ... but sometimes very different ) . Thus, folks may otherwise go to the book store and pick up a "Zen" book, or listen to a talk, and wonder why the contents seem so different sometimes (same ... but different ). Despite its modest size in Japan (but, then again, the same for my own lineage through Nishijima Roshi!), the Sanbôkyôdan has had a large influence on Zen in the West due to the great number of Zen teachers in America who have direct ties to it, including Robert Aitken, Maezumi Taizan (the "White Plum") and his students such as Daido Loori, Bernie Glassman, Genpo Merzel , Chozen Bays and Joan Halifax, as well as Philip Kapleau (author of Three Pillars of Zen") and Eido Tai Shimano Roshis.

    You can read more in this the Robert Sharf article on the Sanbo Kyodan [PDF}

    Sanbôkyôdan Zen and the Way of the New Religions
    by Robert H. Sharf
    Japanese Journal of Religious Studies (1995) 22 3-4



    Shikakantaza is cooking-non-cooking.

    Gassho, Jundo
    Last edited by Jundo; 06-09-2014, 04:23 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

    Comment

    • shikantazen
      Member
      • Feb 2013
      • 361

      #17
      Thank you both.

      Gassho,
      Sam

      Comment

      • Mp

        #18
        Originally posted by Taigu
        it takes great faith to sit wholeheartedly and give any up any idea of achievement or goal.
        Thank you Taigu, a wonderful reminder. =)

        Gassho
        Shingen

        Comment

        • Jundo
          Treeleaf Founder and Priest
          • Apr 2006
          • 40325

          #19
          By the way, I want my comments on the Harada-Yasutani folks to be mostly about how Shikantaza is presented generally in the Line, and not about the many excellent and powerful Teachers in that Line (like Daido Loori and Robert Aitken to name a few) nor the power of the Koan Introspection Zazen they teach for folks drawn that way. That is just the delicious soup they serve to those who may benefit. I am merely speaking about the presentation of Skikantaza there, and perhaps the emphasis on Kensho.

          Maybe the most striking example of Shikantaza there is this famous talk by Yasutani Roshi himself in which he speaks of Shikantaza as a means of intense concentration leading to an explosive Kensho ...

          When you thoroughly practice shikantaza you will sweat-even in the winter. Such intensely heightened alertness of mind cannot be maintained for long periods of time. ... Sit with such intensely heightened concentration, patience, and alertness that if someone were to touch you while you are sitting, there would be an electrical spark! Sitting thus, you return naturally to the original Buddha, the very nature of your being.

          Then, almost anything can plunge you into the sudden realization that all beings are originally buddhas and all existence is perfect from the beginning. Experiencing this is called enlightenment. Personally experiencing this is as vivid as an explosion; regardless of how well you know the theory of explosions, only an actual explosion will do anything. In the same manner, no matter how much you know about enlightenment, until you actually experience it, you will not be intimately aware of yourself as Buddha.

          In short, shikantaza is the actual practice of buddhahood itself from the very beginning-and, in diligently practicing shikantaza, when the time comes, one will realize that very fact.

          However, to practice in this manner can require a long time to attain enlightenment, and such practice should never be discontinued until one fully realizes enlightenment. Even after attaining great enlightenment and even if one becomes a roshi, one must continue to do shikantaza forever, simply because shikantaza is the actualization of enlightenment itself.
          Daily Zen has been a contemplative haven for visitors since 1998. offering a unique blend of daily Eastern quotes, a meditation room, Teishos, Zen art, and Zen-inspired e-cards.


          It is a very instrumental and goal oriented view of Shikantaza. In fact, many or most of the Western Teachers in that Lineages seem to have softened a bit in their approach from Yasutani's fire and brimstone, but they still tend to present Shikantaza in a rather instrumental way, or as some second fiddle or stepping stone to Koan Introspection. That is a shame and a misunderstanding, in my book.

          I am sorry that we have wondered a bit away from Seizan original question on breath.

          Gassho, J
          ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

          Comment

          • Seizan
            Member
            • Sep 2012
            • 213

            #20
            Wow, thanks everyone! This is a great conversation. A lot to learn about here. When I first began just sitting, it was difficult for me to understand the non-attaining and simplicity of it. But the longer I do it, the more I just let it be! Most of the time.. Didn't mean to suggest that this should be merged with shikantaza or replace it or anything like that, I just have an interest in sutra study.

            Thank you, Jundo & Taigu.

            Deep Gassho,
            Seizan

            Comment

            • Nengyo
              Member
              • May 2012
              • 668

              #21
              I'm still unclear...what's the fastest way to get enlightened?

              This is an excellent thread. A great reminder of our practice.
              If I'm already enlightened why the hell is this so hard?

              Comment

              • Jundo
                Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                • Apr 2006
                • 40325

                #22
                One of my favorite, simple images to explain the madness to the non-method of Zazen. What is the fastest way for the dog to catch the tail?



                Run faster? Follow the breath? Resolve a Koan?

                Or is it to fulling stop the chase to the marrow and realize what was present all along ... just wag wag wag.

                Gassho, J
                Last edited by Jundo; 06-13-2015, 08:05 AM.
                ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                Comment

                • Getchi
                  Member
                  • May 2015
                  • 612

                  #23
                  Dogs and Soup? Im sure theres an excellant book there!

                  THankyou so much for htis, it clears up a lot of what ive been wondering myself lately. Is it ok to ask what place "Kensho" has in these systems? It looks like the main difference is that some strive forward with all there effort and others just happen upon it on the way.

                  I think such abig goal would be distracting

                  Gassho,
                  Geoff; a student.

                  #SatToday
                  Nothing to do? Why not Sit?

                  Comment

                  • Jundo
                    Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                    • Apr 2006
                    • 40325

                    #24
                    Hi Geoff,

                    At the risk of putting even more words here, Soto folks generally have a special way of approaching "Kensho" ... here is an old post ...

                    Gassho, Jundo


                    =====================

                    Dogen tended to speak of "Enlightenment" ... not as some momentary experience to attain ... but as "Practice-Enlightenment", emphasizing that how we make Buddha Wisdom and Compassion manifest in our actual words, thoughts and deeds in this life is the real "Kensho".

                    These momentary Kensho [or other] experiences can be light and deep and beyond light or deep. This can be much more profound and enveloping than a sensation of "I" feeling oneness or awe. HOWEVER, that does not matter because, generally in Soto, we consider all such experiences as passing scenery ... just a visit to the wonders of the Grand Canyon. One cannot stay there, as lovely as it is. Nice and educational place to visit ... would not, should not, could not truly live there. One can even live perfectly well never having visited the vast Canyon at all. The most important thing is to get on the bus, get on with the trip, get on with life from there. In our Soto Way, the WHOLE TRIP is Enlightenment when realized as such (that is the True "Kensho"!) ... not some momentary stop or passing scene or some final destination .

                    The following is important, so BOLDFACE and UNDERLINE ...

                    Different folks approach and define all this in their own way. In our Soto View, some folks way way way overvalue an experience of timelessly momentary "Kensho" ... as the be all and end all (beyond being or ending) of "Enlightenment" ... and chase after it like some gold ring on the merry go round. For Soto folks, that is like missing the point of the trip. For Soto Folks, when we realize such ... every moment of the Buddha-Bus trip, the scenery out the windows (both what we encounter as beautiful and what appears ugly), the moments of good health and moments of passing illness, the highway, the seats and windows, all the other passengers on the Bus who appear to be riding with us, when we board and someday when we are let off ... the whole Trip ... is all the Buddha-Bus, all Enlightenment and Kensho, all the "destination" beyond "coming" or "going" or "getting there", when realized as such (Kensho). This ride is what we make it.

                    In a nutshell, a wondrous and important experience perhaps, but in "Zen Enlightenment" one comes to realize that even this ordinary, dusty, confining, sometimes joyous and sometimes ugly world is just as miraculous, wondrous, and "holy" as anything like that. The "Grand Canyon" or "Top of Mt. Everest" is a wonderful place to visit, but wouldn't want to live there. Scratching one's nose, taking out the trash, feeding the baby ... when we come to perceive this world as such ... is all as much the "Buddhaland" as anything with rainbow colored trees and cotton candy castles in the sky. In fact, the canyon vistas and the mountain top are ever before your eyes even now ... in the trash, your nose, in the hungry baby [(even in Mara!)]... although maybe hard to see. The most "boring and ordinary, beautiful or ugly" of this world is Extraordinary and Beautiful when properly understood.

                    In the violence, ugliness, anger, greed and clutching, divisive thoughts and frictions of the world, this fact can be hidden, so hard to see. Thus, a key aspect of our Practice is to see and live free of the violence, anger, greed, clutching and all the rest to see this fact more clearly ... and even to realize it was there all along, though so hidden by the storm.

                    Most folks just don't pierce that fact and are lost in delusion about the Nature of the trip. Most sentient being "passengers" on this ride just don't realize that, feeling homesick, car sick, separated from all the other passengers, revolted or attracted to what they see ... filling the whole trip with thoughts of greed and anger, spoiling the journey, making a mess of the bus and harming themselves and the other riders, unhappy until they get to the "promised destination" somewhere down the road. They may even get to the Grand Canyon, snap a picture and buy a sovenier, then wonder "is that all it is"?

                    I once wrote this on such Kensho (Seeing One's Nature) experiences ...

                    For Kensho is, in fact, special as special ever has been or could be … a sacred jewel, key to the path, life’s vitality realized … nothing other than special!

                    Yet Kensho is “nothing special” in that each and all facets of this life-world-self, bar none, are vital, sacred, a unique treasure – and every step of the path is central to the path. The “ordinary and mundane” is never ordinary. Every moment and any encounter, each breeze and blade of grass is special, sacred, a jewel in Indra’s Net. Thus, I do not mean to lower the import of Kensho in the least, but just to RAISE UP all of life, and every instant of practice, to one and the same par with Kensho, for such is the wholeness, intimacy, unity that is KENSHO’d in KENSHO.
                    .
                    Realizing that fact – that the most “ordinary” is sacred and whole and unbroken – is at the heart of Kensho! Failing to see Kensho as extraordinary insight into the extra-ordinariness and sacredness of both the sacred and ordinary is not to see “Kensho.”
                    That is why many Soto folks, like Sawaki Roshi above, think "Kensho Schmensho" ... running after some timelessly momentary fireworky experience of "Kensho" is not True "Grocking the Nature" Buddha-Bus Kensho. He says ...

                    You want to become a buddha? There’s no need to become a buddha! Now is simply now. You are simply you. And tell me, since you want to leave the place where you are,where is it exactly you want to go?
                    Zazen means just sitting without even thinking of becoming buddha.
                    We don’t achieve satori through practice: practice is satori. Each and every step is the goal.


                    Something like that.

                    Gassho, J

                    SatToday
                    Last edited by Jundo; 01-06-2017, 01:43 AM.
                    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                    Comment

                    • Jishin
                      Member
                      • Oct 2012
                      • 4821

                      #25
                      Originally posted by Jundo
                      Kensho Schmensho


                      Gassho, Jishin, _/st\_

                      Comment

                      • Kyonin
                        Treeleaf Priest / Engineer
                        • Oct 2010
                        • 6749

                        #26
                        Thank you for this reminder, Jundo.

                        Gassho,

                        Kyonin
                        #SatToday
                        Hondō Kyōnin
                        奔道 協忍

                        Comment

                        • Getchi
                          Member
                          • May 2015
                          • 612

                          #27
                          Jundo, many thanks

                          Ive read over those words several times now, and will do so again!

                          Many people I have known place all there faith in "transformative states", and having experienced something (who can ever really say?) then strive earnestly to achieve higher, purer or better states. When it doesnt happen, or worse after it has happened again, they can become very despondant. Ive seen many disregard the magic of the everymoment because they assume somethign greater can be had.

                          Ive felt for a long time that the "after" is just as important as the "moment" of insight, in the sense that without a solid and comfortable presence in the present, it can only lead to more desire for those states of being.

                          Thats a lot of words to say thankyou, im just starting to learn this Soto way and already I can see the value in its approach. Every moment is eternal and must be honoured as such, and how else can I learn to be happy in the every-here-and-now?

                          Most folks just don't pierce that fact and are lost in delusion about the Nature of the trip.
                          Beautiful. The eternal Buddha mind we all are and the small ego mind that we all think we are need to cooperate without harming others. Avalakoteshvara is merciful.

                          I hope im getting there, there feels like so much that makes plain simple sense and I have so much time to figure it our

                          Gassho,
                          Geoff
                          SatToday
                          Last edited by Getchi; 06-14-2015, 11:54 AM. Reason: Forgot how to English.
                          Nothing to do? Why not Sit?

                          Comment

                          • Myosha
                            Member
                            • Mar 2013
                            • 2974

                            #28
                            Hello,

                            Always living these words of our Teacher:

                            "The point of this Zen enterprise is always realization, both in the sense of realizing/awakening to the reality of our Buddhaness and realizing/making it real through our constant acts in life and constant Practice. One might say that we simultaneously drop all goals, keep our goals (to be Buddhalike) and realize those goals-not-goals in every act and choice."


                            Gassho
                            Myosha sat today
                            "Recognize suffering, remove suffering." - Shakyamuni Buddha when asked, "Uhm . . .what?"

                            Comment

                            Working...