The shift...

[dharmasponge]

Hello everyone.

When you sit, at that moment when you stop all physical movements and become quiet, are you aware that you're doing zazen? Do you think..."there, that's it" - or is there no difference in the content of mind before, during and after sitting?

_/|\_

Tony...

[Nindo]

How do you stop all physical movement? Are you still breathing in zazen? Is your heart still beating?
Gassho,
Nindo

[dharmasponge]

I didn't of course mean absolutely all physical movement including being dead due to not breathing...so yes your heart should hopefully still beat....

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[Jundo]

Zazen is "It" whether one thinks "that's it" or not.

Yet, if you think that one HAS TO feel "that's it" for it to be "it", then it is not "it". But if one sits right through and beyond "that's it" or "not it" ... THAT'S IT ... and we may sometimes even know so. But known or not ... IT is ALWAYS IT! To just sIT is IT.

Sometimes Zazen is quiet & still and sometimes not. However, Zazen is ALWAYS the Silence and Stillness that encompasses both silence and noise, stillness and motion. Sometimes the noise and motion hide the Silence and Stillness, and make them hard to perceive. No matter, because the Silence and Stillness are ALWAYS so whether known or not. Nice to know silence and stillness ... but better to witness the Silence and Stillness (Big S) that are not dependent on silence and stillness, their perception or not.

There is a great difference in the content of mind before, during and after ... because the mind, and all phenomena, are always changing.

There is the GREAT MIND that full transcends yet manifests as "before, during or after" and all change. But this GREAT MIND is not dependent on whether it is perceived or not. If you think one must perceive GREAT MIND for GREAT MIND to be GREAT MIND ... that ain't so great. If one sits beyond and right through all need to perceive or not perceive GREAT MIND ... and all judgments of great and not so great too ... such is GREAT MIND! And sitting in such way works GREAT CHANGES on the content of the mind.

It ain't rocket science.

Gassho, J

[dharmasponge]

Thanks Jundo. I guess I am still utterly unable to move past what I see as contradicting stances of no agenda or method and an undeniable 'goal' (enlightenment) and the physical process of moving onto the cushion to do something - as if there is no method then why sit at all?

I have not been static since starting the 'Mechanics of Enlightenment' thread. Just no further to even the slightest understanding of Dogen or Shikantaza.

With respect...

Tony...

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[dharmasponge]

...I do get the Ch'an expositions. Master Sheng Yen and his 'Method of no Method' floats my boat. But the Soto explanation still seems to be like that elusive bar of soap in the bath........!

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[Myosha]

Hello,

Be the water???


Gassho,
Myosha

[Jundo]

Hi Tony,

It is really very simple.

Radically dropping to the marrow all goal and method and need to attain ... and sitting with the attitude that sitting alone is all goals and needs in all time and space fulfilled ... is the method for attaining the goal which is only attained in such way, aka "Enlightenment" (because "Enlightenment" is the Total Fulfillment present from the get go ... with nothing lacking or in need of adding or taking away ... thus not something to be "attained").

We very diligently move to the cushion to "do something", namely, to "do" this "nothing in need of doing but sitting", just sitting as "nothing more in need of doing, never was and never will be in the whole of Reality, sitting itself as Buddha sitting". Is that "doing" or "not doing"? It is rather "doing-not-doing"!!

It ain't rocket science.

Gassho, J

[Jundo]

But the Soto explanation still seems to be like that elusive bar of soap in the bath........!

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This bar of soap is Buddha whether one grabs hold of it or not. But grab tightly and squeeze too hard ... it tends to slip away. Relax gently, and the soap is in hand!

You see, there is nothing in need of cleaning and scrubbing ... all pristine from the first. And yet, one better scrub scrub scrub because, oh, this life can be messy!

There is no contradiction; This "Buddha Soap" scrubs and washes clean that which could never be dirty from the start! Though there is never a place for dust to alight, wash wash wash. The very act of washing is Buddha washing Buddha.



Gassho, J

[Ishin]

Hi Tony

I am just a newbie, though I have been sitting for about a year consistently now. I think I know what you are wondering, and I think you might be making this too difficult for yourself.

When I sit of course I KNOW I am sitting, just like I KNOW it's raining outside, but I don't think about the rain. When I sit, if I find myself thinking "is this it?" "how is my sitting?" "is this sitting better than yesterday?" "am I sitting like Taigu taught?" "I don't want to sit" "this is a good sit" "this is a bad sit" "how long will I have to sit" "I better get enlightened after all this sitting" "is this the proper technique to sit?" "F@#$ this sitting crap" I just DROP it. Drop everything. Sit. This constant buzzing in your mind analysis is exactly what you are trying to STOP. Just sit and let EVERY thought drop to just THIS.

Perhaps when you study and learn, talking , reading, about zazen, this is the time for evaluation, but when you sit, take what you know, or even what you think you know-don't know and just SIT.. lol

Jundo you must have a Buddha picture for ten thousand occasions .

Gassho
C

[shikantazen]

I think what Jundo says is similar to what Okumura or Uchiyama say in "Opening the hand of thought". Don't use any object, yet keep coming back to just sitting, waking up from distracted thought and drowsiness.

http://www.sanshinji.org/pdf/zazen_instructions.pdf

Jundo adds "to sit with the attitude of nothing in need of change, no where to go". These instructions are from the basic principles of zen/zazen, that you are NOT doing zazen to add something that you lack now; you already are enlightened. You are not in search of for future goal. Zazen is basically a useless, pointless activity that you are still doing.

I have been confused by this kind of instruction (the one Jundo adds) since I joined the forum (past 1 yr 3 months). In my view just knowing/understanding that there is no where to go and nothing in need of change is enough. Trying to maintain that "do nothing" attitude during zazen when we are infact doing something (keep coming back) I feel is confusing.

Now I see other people getting confused too so just wanted to make my point.

Infact as Clark or someone pointed earlier, "letting be" more accurately represents zazen than "letting go". The latter has "pushing away" kind of feel to it while the earlier is more like "just sit, being okay with thoughts, not purposefully thinking something during zazen".

Gassho,
Sam

[Jundo]

Jundo adds "to sit with the attitude of nothing in need of change, no where to go". These instructions are from the basic principles of zen/zazen, that you are NOT doing zazen to add something that you lack now; you already are enlightened. You are not in search of for future goal. Zazen is basically a useless, pointless activity that you are still doing.

Yes, but ...

There is "nothing that we lack and nothing to change about us from the start" ... yet realizing that fact is a TREMENDOUS change and addition! Yes, we are "Buddha all along", but it is hard to get that in our thick skulls!

Also, our saying that there is "nothing that we lack and nothing to change about us from the start" DOES NOT MEAN that there is "nothing that we lack and nothing to change about us from the start". Because, unless we do such things as Practice diligently and dump some of that "greed, anger and ignorance" it is darn hard to realize that ""nothing that we lack and nothing to change about us from the start"! Yes, we are "Buddha all along", but that don't mean nothing until we start acting like it!

Also, saying that Zazen is "useless and pointless" misses the mark if it means that we just sit like bumps on a log, twiddling our thumbs and killing time because, gosh, Zazen is "useless and pointless". Rather, one must sit feeling in the guts that Zazen is the Use of All Uses, the Whole Kit-&-Caboodle, the Point that holds all time and space in its Singularity! Only then is Zazen truly "Useless" and "Pointless" (because what is the use when all is already attained, what is the point when nothing escapes the point?)

And what's more ... we are not "doing nothing" when we sit Zazen. We are "doing everything" when we sit Zazen, and thus there is nothing more lacking or in need of doing. It is only "doing nothing" in the sense that there is nothing in need of doing because Zazen is Emptiness and Everythingness Doing and Done!

Not rocket science.

Gassho, J

[dharmasponge]

So all the commentaries, all the suttas all pointing in the wrong direction? No need for Jhana, Vipassana, Satipattana because all we need to do is merely sit and accept things just as they are?

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[Ishin]

Yes, but ...

There is "nothing that we lack and nothing to change about us from the start" ... yet realizing that fact is a TREMENDOUS change and addition! Yes, we are "Buddha all along", but it is hard to get that in our thick skulls!

Also, our saying that there is "nothing that we lack and nothing to change about us from the start" DOES NOT MEAN that there is "nothing that we lack and nothing to change about us from the start". Because, unless we do such things as Practice diligently and dump some of that "greed, anger and ignorance" it is darn hard to realize that ""nothing that we lack and nothing to change about us from the start"! Yes, we are "Buddha all along", but that don't mean nothing until we start acting like it!

Also, saying that Zazen is "useless and pointless" misses the mark if it means that we just sit like bumps on a log, twiddling our thumbs and killing time because, gosh, Zazen is "useless and pointless". Rather, one must sit feeling in the guts that Zazen is the Use of All Uses, the Whole Kit-&-Caboodle, the Point that holds all time and space in its Singularity! Only then is Zazen truly "Useless" and "Pointless" (because what is the use when all is already attained, what is the point when nothing escapes the point?)

And what's more ... we are not "doing nothing" when we sit Zazen. We are "doing everything" when we sit Zazen, and thus there is nothing more lacking or in need of doing. It is only "doing nothing" in the sense that there is nothing in need of doing because Zazen is Emptiness and Everythingness Doing and Done!

Not rocket science.

Gassho, J

Been mulling this one over. So if I may paraphrase what I think you are saying is that we are not just sitting doing nothing, nor are we just sitting. We are !!JUST SITTING!! ?

Gassho
C

[alan.r]

Hi Tony,

Take a look at the link Taigu provided today. It's called "Zazen is not Shuzen" and speaks to this, at least to some degree.

Also, from my little experience: vipassana is accepting things as they are, except in maybe a more controlled technique. In Vipassana, you don't label thoughts and feelings in order to be rid of them but to know them, see them clearly for what they are. Same with zazen, but without the need of labels. Just my personal experience and could be wrong. I don't think any of what you mentioned are wrong, just different.

Gassho