Dzogchen and Shikantaza

[Ivan]

Thank you Hans, that's a good overview. But for those who want to dive deeper here are some good sources on Dzogchen:

1. Self-Liberation Through Seeing with Naked Awareness, by Padmasambhava, translated by J. Reynolds (this is one of the most important original writings on Dzogchen)
2. Golden Letters: The Three Statements Of Garab Dorje, First Dzogchen Master, translated by J. Reynolds
3. Longchenpa's Precious Treasury of the Dharmadhatu, translated by Keith Dowman
4. The Flight of Garuda, translated by Keith Dowman

But again, some people don't feel comfortable digging two wells at a time and that's perfectly fine. But others may find it actually helpful. I find witnessing the constant presence of nondual Awareness quite helpful, it's very natural. The Awareness is always here and now, it's not a "special" state of consciousness, we just often disregard it because it's too obvious. But it's inseparable part of "what is", never comes, never goes, always here now. We can forget about Dzogchen and keep sitting Zazen, but once we discover the Awarenes then the knowledge of the presence of Awareness (called "Rigpa" in Dzogchen) becomes natural and doesn't go away anymore and then gradually and naturally changes the perception of the world. And by the way, the Awareness is mentioned in some early Mahayana sutras, for example in Lankavatara sutra ("How the boundless Awareness is achieved? ..." etc.).

But please don't feel that I try to promote any other traditions here, not at all, I'm just sharing something I learned and some info for those who are interested. But if someone doesn't see it helpful - then forget it

And another thought - Dzogchen is spreading in the West and I think some knowledge and familiarity with this tradition may be helpful for us followers of Zen so that we could communicate with Dzogchen followers and understand each other. We are all Mahayana Buddhists after all and we all belong to same global Sangha.

Gassho

[Jundo]

Hello dear fellow Treeleafers,

Jundo is of course right, all this Dzogchen stuff doesn't really belong here and can potentially be very disorienting for some newcomers in particular. I will remove the link to the video now since we should focus more on Zen in this forum.
My intention was simply to add some background information. The foreword to Cultivating the Empty Field by our ancestor Hongzhi contains some valuable comparisons and beautiful Zen texts that have a similar "vibe"

Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

Hi Hans,

There was no need to remove the link.

But some aspects of the Dzoghen Tradition ring and resonate ... and large parts make my head swim. I did have some reservations about some folks thinking we were recommending or endorsing what is presented.

In any event, it is not what we Practice here although some may get much out of it. I am a very simple headed fellow. I just sit, and such is all the world.

Gassho, Jundo

[alan.r]

I did have some reservations about some folks thinking we were recommending or endorsing what is presented.


Gassho, Jundo

I didn't get that feeling at all, and am grateful for your BOLD FONT post.

Gassho

[Rich]

How do you pronounce / say the word Dzoghen ?

Kind regards. /\

[shikantazen]

zogchen

[Jundo]

How do you pronounce / say the word Dzoghen ?

Kind regards. /\

The same as the sound of a stringless lute, a valley without an echo.

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?12283-A-stringless-lute-a-valley-without-an-echo&p=127812&viewfull=1#post127812

Gassho, J

[Rich]

Thx jundo and shigantazen. So without the z its dogen and with the z its last on the list. 😊

Kind regards. /\

[thigle]

Task: Simply sit. Implement this task before you read further. There are two different ways to implement this task:

• You »practice« simply sitting. This is synonymouse to »conceptual reification«.
• You simply sit. This is synonymouse to »primordial unfabricated looseness«.

Extended: Simply sit. Implement this task – but don’t meditate. How? Whenever you catch yourself »practicing« simply sitting instead of simply to sit, recognize how »an« subjectively »simply sitting« permeates the experience due to your »practiced implementation«. So whenever you catch yourself »practicing« simply sitting instead of simply to sit, interrupt this »meditation« and simply sit. Did you recognize the difference between your fabricated and the factual task? Great. If you are naturally able to implement the task »de facto« instead of practicing resp. conceptually reify it again, this is already synonymouse to »primordial unfabricated looseness«. Since »primordial looseness« is completely unfabricated, there is immediate-obvious no need to practice resp. conceptually reify the task again.

Excursus: Doctrines
Do nothing. Leave everything as it is. Act normal. Simply sit. Simply rest. Look at the sky. Be aware. Don’t focus. Leave your consciousness alone. These are all tasks that need to be »implemented« actually, which would be equivalent to »knowledge«. From each of these tasks you can potentially build an own doctrine and tradition. If such tasks are conceptually reified and therefore »practiced«, then this is only consistent. But every actually implemented task is equivalent to any other actually implemented task. Therefore »tradition« as »religion« and the associated spectacle doesn’t matter.

Mnemonic: Every »actual implementation« is primordial-unfabricated respectively primordial-uncontrived. But don’t think in consequence, »..so there is nothing to do« or »..so I behave myself completely natural« or »..so I simply sit and drink my tea« or »..so I’m already liberated« or »..so I stop trying to meditate«. This is just »thinking about« resp. just speculation from the standpoint of ignorance. The tasks must be »implemented« and there are only two ways to implement them: as unfabricated fact or fabricated practice; actually or seemingly. Based on a complete understanding of the difference between the actual and the seemingly, the process of »conceptual reification» can be stopped resp. interrupted. This »can be« the beginning of »primordial unfabricated looseness».

[Nindo]

Schon wieder? - Do we have to hash through this again?
We don't really have tasks here.
We sit.


PS the post reminds me of Gertrude Stein:
"A noun is a name of anything, why after a thing is named write about it. A name is adequate or it is not ... things once they are named does not go on doing anything to them and so why write in nouns. Nouns are the name of anything and just naming names is alright when you want to call a roll but is it good for anything else."
(from "Poetry and Grammar")


As I was saying loving repeating being is in a way earthly being. In some it is repeating that gives to them always a solid feeling of being. In some children there is more feeling and in repeating eating and playing, in some in story-telling and their feeling. More and more in living as growing young men and women and grown men and women and men and women in their middle living, more and more there comes to be in them differences in loving repeating in different kinds of men and women, there comes to be in some more and in some less loving repeating. Loving repeating in some is a going on always in them of earthly being, in some it is the way to completed understanding. Loving repeating then in some is their natural way of complete being. This is now some description of one.
(from The Making of Americans)

[Jundo]

Hi Thigle,

Yes, I have read what you wrote a oouple of times and pretty sure that I don't get it. As Nindo said. Good sitting to you.

Gassho, Jundo

[thigle]

Hi Thigle,

Yes, I have read what you wrote a oouple of times and pretty sure that I don't get it.

You have read what I wrote, but you have not implemented what I wrote, therefore you don't understand what I wrote. Such ignorance makes me sad, because a lot of shikantaza-practitioners do the same. They interrupt their detected »practiced implementation« resp. »conceptual reification« by return to the posture again .. to simply sit actually, instead of their »conceptual reification« called »simply sitting«.

[Hans]

Hello Thigle,

in case you hadn't noticed, this forum is a manifestation of a real Sangha, where people want to share and care for one another, not just one of those countless internet forums where people come to talk talk talk without a community context.
Nothing you have written in this forum indicates that you have any interest in practising and sharing the Dharma outside of wanting to make yourself seem like Buddha's gift to Buddhism.

If you think Dharma is only about Manjusri's sword of understanding you are not even half right.


Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

[thigle]

We don't really have tasks here.
We sit.

Are we a royal highness? Or dissociated? Or do you really speak for everyone in this sect? It's not so much about the tasks, but actual implementation.

[Jundo]

Gee, Mongen ... I am going to make you our official bouncer!

Gassho, J

[thigle]

I'm more of a Martin Luther, werter Hans. Your sectarian ignorance stinks to heaven.