Dzogchen and Shikantaza

[Hans]

Dear John,

may one of Kanzeon's countless arms gently embrace you:

Enmei Jukku Kannon Gyo
Kanzeon Namu Butsu
Yo Butsu U In
Yo Butsu U En
Bup Po So En
Jo Raku Ga Jo
Cho Nen Kanzeon
Bo Nen Kanzeon
Nen Nen Ju Shin Ki
Nen Nen Fu Ri Shin


Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

[Koshin]

Still trying to figure out this thread, but in the meantime, much Metta John, please tell us when everything goes ok with your wife.

Gassho

Sent from Tapatalk 2

[Jundo]

I'm sitting in a hospital room as my wife prepares for surgery. That is real for me. This thread does not seem so. But I am a beginner.

Gassho,
John

We are all sitting with you in the waiting room, John.

Gassho, Jundo

[Ivan]

Hi Martin

One can mix up different traditions, but not mix up different views .. based on direct experience. One has to distinguish different views accurately.

Well, in direct experience there are no views, the Reality is experienced directly without any interpretations. The views have their place, they are important, but they are just temporary instruments that may help you to navigate from distorted interpretation of the world back to the natural state of the direct experience of Reality. The views of different traditions can be different, but when they are used as part of practice, they can lead to the same destination, same "way of being", where all views are dissolved and not needed anymore. But, on the other hand, the views, if misused, can easily become harmful, it's too easy to be lost in the intellectual realm of views and philosophies, disregard the practice (of non-practice) and become an "armchair" Buddhist. Zazen turns our attention from views, philosophies and interpretations back to life, to the direct experience of Reality.

To compare the two practices, I have found the best way is to sit Shikantaza and see how it feels. Intellectual analysis only gets us so far and the different terminology doesn't help much and has us talking past each other. Once we have sat both ways, words are often unnecessary. We can feel the difference, such there is any.

Exactly, thank you, Andy

Gassho

[Kokuu]

Well, in direct experience there are no views, the Reality is experienced directly without any interpretations. The views have their place, they are important, but they are just temporary instruments that may help you to navigate from distorted interpretation of the world back to the natural state of the direct experience of Reality. The views of different traditions can be different, but when they are used as part of practice, they can lead to the same destination, same "way of being", where all views are dissolved and not needed anymore. But, on the other hand, the views, if misused, can easily become harmful, it's too easy to be lost in the intellectual realm of views and philosophies, disregard the practice (of non-practice) and become an "armchair" Buddhist. Zazen turns our attention from views, philosophies and interpretations back to life, to the direct experience of Reality.

I agree totally, Ivan. The practice of Dzogchen, Mahamudra, Shikantaza and Vipassana all lead to the direct experience of reality. View is the basis on which practice rests in order to gain the fruit.

Comparing different views is not entirely pointless but can certainly become addictive as an end in itself. Madhyamaka philosophy has endless treatises comparing the views of four schools of emptiness and many people have spent a lifetime studying this (for which we can be grateful). Whether it is a fruitful way to practice is entirely another matter. It is probably telling that Milarepa's parting message to his disciple Gampopa was to lift up his skirts and show the callouses on his buttocks from years of sitting.

Gassho
Andy

[Jundo]

Too much mental wheel turning in this discussion. I believe Mr. Thigle is a fellow who is known around the Buddhist internet for coming to places to push the very personal interpretations of Buddhist Practice seen here.

It is fine to have one's own interpretations. But please recall that Treeleaf is not a typical internet Buddhist forum. Ours is a Place of Practice with a particular flavor of Practice, and the Forum merely supports that. Please Practice what we Practice here in our Dojo, or find a place better suited to one's tastes and needs.

Gassho, J

[Meishin]

Thank you for your presence. No complications, good prognosis. All others in that waiting room, families and staff, benefitted from our sitting together.

Gassho,
john

[thigle]

Conclusion: Many Zen Buddhists just sit, instead of just sitting. They meditate, instead of just sitting. And they do not recognice the difference. Thus, they task has to be extended: Just sit, don’t meditate.


Many thanks to some less sectarian/religious buddhists in this community, you helped me very much!


()
Martin

[Hans]

Hello,

since the thread title mentions Dzogchen, for those who might be interested in hearing a pretty good dharma talk by a western teacher that also outlines the tradition a bit, here is a video link which I personally liked very much:


LINK REMOVED for reasons outlined a few posts further down.



Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

[Jinyo]

Thanks for the link Hans - I am going to watch the video because I don't know anything about Dzogchen and found this thread a bit confusing.

Gassho

Willow

[Jundo]

Just sit beyond and right through boldface or original face, BIG FONT and tiny font, Times New Roman and time. Just sit.

Gassho, J

[Ishin]

I am with Jishin. My brain hurts reading all this. Isn't this all a bit pedantic? I would just say in defense of the teachers here that I have not experienced sectarianism, and a rather open perspective to other's views. If you puddle jump from one system to another continually, you will never dig a deep well. It is interesting and perhaps useful on one level to clarify what one is doing by studying different views and techniques, but for me, this thread borders on the obsessive.

Good luck John with your wife.

Gassho and just sitting.
C

[Jundo]

Hello,

since the thread title mentions Dzogchen, for those who might be interested in hearing a pretty good dharma talk by a western teacher that also outlines the tradition a bit, here is a video link which I personally liked very much:

Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

There is some common ground ... groundless ground ... the pathless path ... but also so much that makes my head spin. I am sure that it is a lovely way for those who walk such way.

Gassho, J

[Hans]

Hello dear fellow Treeleafers,

Jundo is of course right, all this Dzogchen stuff doesn't really belong here and can potentially be very disorienting for some newcomers in particular. I will remove the link to the video now since we should focus more on Zen in this forum.
My intention was simply to add some background information. The foreword to Cultivating the Empty Field by our ancestor Hongzhi contains some valuable comparisons and beautiful Zen texts that have a similar "vibe"

Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

[alan.r]

I am with Jishin. My brain hurts reading all this. Isn't this all a bit pedantic? I would just say in defense of the teachers here that I have not experienced sectarianism, and a rather open perspective to other's views. If you puddle jump from one system to another continually, you will never dig a deep well. It is interesting and perhaps useful on one level to clarify what one is doing by studying different views and techniques, but for me, this thread borders on the obsessive.

Good luck John with your wife.

Gassho and just sitting.
C

It's not a question of pedantry or even necessarily obsessiveness or overthinking - those are all places to learn and teach, and not necessarily "bad." It's a question of the sincerity of the original question (how similar are shikantaza and dzogchen?).

Hope your wife is doing well John. I was sitting in a hospital room last week while my wife had surgery, but it was just a broken nose, and she's fine.

Gassho