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ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE -
Hoi Hans,
Don't be afraid, because I don't use Dzogchen terminology in any way. The most important term "knowledge" was used in the context of Dogen's quote. The term "transparency" to. for example, Dogen said to "transparency": subtle.
I do
. But I know your style. I was a part of the Soto-Community for 4 years.
It has nothing to do with philosophy. It's the exact opposite. One must compare the words from the very beginning with ones own direct experience, that's all. Then everything can be understood easily. If one is just reading the text and thinking about the content, it's like philosophy. But I try to adapt myself to break down the tasks.
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Martin» Neither focus .. nor practice «Comment
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You have Dzogchen. We have Dogen. Clarity without the distraction of z, c, and h.
Gassho,
JukiLast edited by Juki; 05-05-2014, 07:34 PM."First you have to give up." Tyler DurdenComment
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Hoi Alan,
yes.. but that's no all. But in this direction it goes.
Right, everybody must go trough grasping/fabrication/reified-conceptualisation. When I sit .. just sit .. now .. I'm practicing "just sitting" .. instead of just sitting. I meditate, instead of just sitting. There's a artificial focus to detect. There's grasping. There's a really fabricated mind. There are a lot of expectations. I want to have something from "just sitting". There's automatically an artificial reified-conceptualisation of "just sitting". One can detect this reified-conceptualisation as quality like "just sitting'nes. That's consciousness. Et cetera. There's much to learn.
The task: "Leave everything as it is" is the same like the task:"Do nothing", or "don't focus" or "be natural" or "just sit" or "look into the sky like you are looking into the sky", or .... . There are always two different ways to implement these tasks. One way is based in ignorance, the other way is based on knowledge. So, just sitting can be Buddha.
Right. If one is practicing "just sitting" instead of just sitting, one can interrupt (while you sit) meditation, practiced nonmeditation, clarity, bliss, openess or whatever artificial. That' all based on fabrication. One day, for every "practitioner", the explained difference is absoluty clear.
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MartinLast edited by thigle; 05-05-2014, 06:19 PM.» Neither focus .. nor practice «Comment
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Hi Martin,
Like yourself I've been practicing both Dzogchen and Zen for some time. The details of practice and teachings, as well as language terms, are somewhat different, but essentially both traditions are pointing to the same "way and state of being". After all, they are both rooted in Mahayana Buddhism. There is an opinion that it is better to stick with only one tradition and not mix them up, but I think that may vary from person to person - some people are more flexible then others and there is no problem with either way.
And regarding your point on "doing nothing" or "just sitting" as not a "practice of doing nothing" or "practice of just sitting" in both Dzogchen and Zen - that's true and it is a common point in both traditions and common to Buddhist practice in general regardless of the school. It's simply just dropping any idea of "someone doing or not doing, sitting or not sitting" (or rather a belief in the reality of the content of that idea). Where there is no "idea of doing or sitting", there is "just sitting" beyond labels and ideas. Yeah, we all know how sticky those ideas are, and no wonder - we exercised them for decades, but they tend to dissolve gradually and eventually go away like our childhood beliefs in fairies once they are recognized as just waves on the ocean of what is.
One difference one may notice is an emphasis on "awareness" in Dzogchen and a lack of that emphasis in Zen. I think it's just one of those technical and instructional differences. Awareness is not emphasized in Zen as something special, it is just naturally experienced in Zazen without a need to emphasize it as something distinct or special, it's just an inseparable part of the direct experience of "what is".
Anyway, I just wanted to drop a beautiful and short Dzogchen root Tantra which sounds to me just like a piece of Zen poetry:
The nature of multiplicity is nondual
and things in themselves are pure and simple;
being here and now is not a concept
and it shines out in all forms, always all good;
it is already perfect, so the striving sickness is avoided
and spontaneity is constantly present.
"The Cuckoo's Song of Total Presence"
The root Tantra of the Semde (Mind Cycle)Comment
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Against my better judgment, I will offer this ...
- As Ivan says, as Shikantaza sits, we do not speak of "awareness" or "primordial Consciousness" or the like and their attaining. Neither do we -not- speak of such and not attaining such. A Clarity is thus attained-non-attained which is simultaneously free of the 10,000 things of life, yet is precisely the 10,000 things of life ... all while each of the 10,000 things of life rests simultaneously free of the 10,000 things of life, yet each expressing and fully embodying all the 10,000 things of life. Each of the 10,000 thus presents as clear and whole, just as it is ... both the things we find ugly and unpleasant and those we find pleasing. All Is Just As It Is.
We do not seek to attain some extra-ordinary state of mind ... but sit right through and beyond "ordinary vs. extra-ordinary" ... and thus find this so-called "ordinary", tedious sometimes painful and frustrating world to have been the most wondrous and ordinary-extra-ordinary all along.
Sometimes one may speak of "Original Mind" or "Big B Buddha" or "Emptiness" or (as in our Koan this week) "the Person of No Rank" ...
... yet such are just names for what should not be reified (beyond and right through "being vs. not being"), and which simultaneously transcends Samsara yet which is fully flowering precisely as Samsara ... somehow fully beyond yet right through and fully embodied in sacred and profane, enlightenment and delusion AT ONCE.
To accomplish so, we drop to the marrow all thought of accomplishing and attaining ... thus to accomplish what can only be attained in such way.
When we sit Zazen ... sitting sits us ... sitting sits sitting ... there is only sitting. One must sit with the attitude that sitting itself is the Whole and Complete Act, the one thing to do ... the only thing in need of doing ... in that moment in all reality ... no other place to go, no other action in need of doing in such moment. Sitting is not an instrumentality or technique to the realizing of something ... and thus in dropping all thought of instrumentality toward realization, one realizes what can only be realized in such way. (Thus, Zazen is so much unlike our usual actions in daily life where we run to here and there, and need to "do and accomplish something" in order to fill some holes in our life that need filling. Zazen is the potholes of life Wholly Holey Holy filled by the flowing Dance of Wholeness ... a name I prefer to "Emptiness" ... all along beyond human standards of "complete vs. incomplete", "filled" or "empty" ... ).
Something like that. I hope it helps.
Gassho, JLast edited by Jundo; 05-06-2014, 02:04 AM.ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLEComment
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Hoi Ivan,
One can mix up different traditions, but not mix up different views .. based on direct experience. One has to distinguish different views accurately.
One must recognice ones own tendency to fabricate/grasp everything. That's simple and because of that, it's very complicated.
They dissolve gradually, if temporary knowledge has been recognized previously. So one have to make a lot decisions in this time. This can take years and decades.
Just for the other Zen-Practitioners: Don't misunderstand the term "awareness" with a special form of consciousness. "Awareness" or rigpa is "knowledge".
"Knowing” does not mean perception; for perception is of little measure. It does not mean understanding; for understanding is artificially constructed. Therefore, this “knowing” is “not touching things”, and “not touching things” is “knowing”. (..) Thought” is itself “knowing”, without dependence on another’s power. “Its knowing” is its form, and its form is the mountains and rivers. These mountains and rivers are “subtle”, and this “subtlety” is “mysterious”. (Zazenshin)
This is a full, flowery describtion of knowledge, transparency (subtlety) and even potentiality (mysterious). This triple is primordial inseperable. But as you said correctly, that's just a instructional difference. In concret experience, there's no triple. Neither trough Shikantaza nor Dzogchen.
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MartinLast edited by thigle; 05-06-2014, 06:58 AM.» Neither focus .. nor practice «Comment
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Hi Jundo,
This sounds for me like dissociation .. not "just sitting". But you're right in another way: If you are practicing "just sitting" instead of just sitting, so if you are meditate instead of just sitting, then sitting sits you .. sitting sits sitting. If so, there's a lot to learn about ones own grasping. Some day, after recognicing all the problems in ones own practiced "just sitting", you just sit - in an completely unfabricated, factual way. And that's Shikantaza. But that's just my point of view.
Sounds for me like a real strong focus on just sitting. Sounds like practiced "just sitting", not just sitting.
Sounds for me like a real strong focus on just sitting. Sounds like practiced "just sitting", not just sitting.
You're right, that's what I'm talking about.
Please do not be offended if I can not agree with you on all points. I respect you as teacher. Don't focus so much on my Dzogchen-context. There's nothing to defend in this topic.
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MartinLast edited by thigle; 05-06-2014, 07:37 AM.» Neither focus .. nor practice «Comment
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I feel like a Tibetan man and a Japanese man trying to speak in each others languages. Not sure whether they are saying the same thing or not!
All we can agree on is there is some truth beyond words.
Anyway, we Practice here what we Practice here. Please sit so while here.
Gassho, JLast edited by Jundo; 05-06-2014, 07:43 AM.ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLEComment
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Wow. This thread is causing my brain to smoke. Gotta feed the dogs and get ready for work. :-)
Gassho, JishinComment
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I'm sitting in a hospital room as my wife prepares for surgery. That is real for me. This thread does not seem so. But I am a beginner.
Gassho,
JohnComment
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Dear all
To compare the two practices, I have found the best way is to sit Shikantaza and see how it feels. Intellectual analysis only gets us so far and the different terminology doesn't help much and has us talking past each other. Once we have sat both ways, words are often unnecessary. We can feel the difference, such there is any.
John - much metta to you and your wife. I wish you much patience and strength. Please let us know how it goes.
Gassho
AndyComment
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Hello John H,
Metta to one and all.
Gassho,
Myosha"Recognize suffering, remove suffering." - Shakyamuni Buddha when asked, "Uhm . . .what?"Comment
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