Hardcore Zen

[Roland]

I'm reading Sit Down and Shut Up now. As a beginner in shikantaza I really like insights and practical stuff such as this: "Now try to look at the natural spaces between thoughts. Learn what it feels like just to stop generating more and more stuff for your brain to chew on. Now see if you can do that for longer and longer periods. A couple of seconds is fine. Voilà! Thinking not thinking!"
I once experienced something strange (or so I thought) while performing a karate kata (a solo sequence of combat movements) - it was as if during the short gaps between the movements (in Shotokan karate the kata movements have these 'spaces' between them) my thoughts stopped completely. But now I realize these gaps are there if one just tries to pay attention to how thoughts manifest themselves.

[Jundo]

I'm reading Sit Down and Shut Up now. As a beginner in shikantaza I really like insights and practical stuff such as this: "Now try to look at the natural spaces between thoughts. Learn what it feels like just to stop generating more and more stuff for your brain to chew on. Now see if you can do that for longer and longer periods. A couple of seconds is fine. Voilà! Thinking not thinking!"
I once experienced something strange (or so I thought) while performing a karate kata (a solo sequence of combat movements) - it was as if during the short gaps between the movements (in Shotokan karate the kata movements have these 'spaces' between them) my thoughts stopped completely. But now I realize these gaps are there if one just tries to pay attention to how thoughts manifest themselves.

It is important to realize, however, that the space between thoughts is not all there is to realize. Once the great, boundless, clarity of such a space is known ... like the wide open blue sky in all directions ... one must then come to realize that the thought and open, the clouds and sky, the clear mirror and all things appearing in the mirror ... were never really two at all.

One realizes that the light and sky are there all along, even when hidden by the clouds and ... what is more ... one can come to find the light which shines through and as the clouds of thought, illuminating and lightening all.

One comes to find the clarity of the nonjudgmental mirror which accepts all ... and the world perceived in the mirror ... are not divided.

So, do not think that the point of this practice is merely to find some clear space free of clouds, or to wipe the mirror free of all dust. It is easy to think that is the whole goal.

Such is Thinking-non-Thinking.

Gassho, J

[Kokuu]

Jundo

I was just looking through the recommended booklist and Hardcore Zen is actually not included. Sit Down and Shut Up is there but not HZ.

With Hans recommending Seeing Through Zen on another thread, this might be another good addition to the history of Zen section.

Gassho
Andy

[Jundo]

Jundo

I was just looking through the recommended booklist and Hardcore Zen is actually not included. Sit Down and Shut Up is there but not HZ.

With Hans recommending Seeing Through Zen on another thread, this might be another good addition to the history of Zen section.

Gassho
Andy

Hi Andy,

Your eyes must be playing tricks! They were there, though I moved Hardcore Zen together with Sit Down to make it a bit easier to spot.

I am actually not such a fan of "Sit Down and Shut Up" because as I recall (it has been a long time since I read it) I found Brad's treatment of Shobogenzo a bit fluffy and off key. Brad can be a lazy scholar and says stuff sometimes which he pulls out of his left nostril without really doing his homework (the God book suffered from this too). I do like Hardcore. Should give "Sit Down" and "Hardcore" a reread.

Also, the book that Hans mentioned ... Seeing Through Zen ... is wonderful, but might really only be of interest to Zen History wonks. As I recall (it has also been awhile since I read it, but I have a copy in front of my), it mostly is focused on very early developments in China and makes some points that are really pretty well accepted now. Yes, much of the "Sacred Lineage" going back to India and the early years in China is "made up" by folks just trying to play "connect the dots" back to Buddha. Many of the people in the Lineage did not even exist, or know each other, or have anything to do with "Zen". Many of the Koan stories of the Tang Dynasty (the so-called Golden Age) were made up in the Song Dynasty, and are unlikely to be real historical events (and actually the Song Dynasty, often said to be when Zen got a bit stiff, was the age that created legends of a "Golden Age" and was the actual era of the formation of most of our Zen institutions such as the Koan). A lot of this was done for political reasons, as the sect tried to give itself a history and legitimacy (e.g., by inventing these ancestors and their stories) it lacked.

No problem, figures such as Bodhidharma and the 6th Patriarch, although perhaps more "legend" than "living people", are paradigms that stand for teachings as real as real can be. They are much like "Moses" in that way ... a symbol of freedom from oppression who may not actually have been in flesh and blood.

Here is an often sited article by Faure, another well known Zen historian, on Bodhidharma as paradigm.

http://www.thezensite.com/ZenEssays/Philosophical/Bodhidharma_as_Paradigm.html

Gassho, J

[Kokuu]

Hi Jundo

Weird. I looked multiple times and couldn't see it!

Thank you for the link to the Bodhidharma piece. Will give it a look.

Gassho
Andy

[Daijo]

It's hard to capture this practice in words without getting slightly off the mark. Truthfully as soon as we are aware of "thinking-non thinking" then we've actually lost it. That's a problem with books on zen. You cant really describe the indescribable. You can describe posture, and effort to an extent, but once we attempt to explain "experience" we're creating problems.

We may from time to time be in these moments of "thinking non thinking" or perhaps even "samadhi". Yet the instant we realize we are in it......we are not. I don't think anyone can really put that "in it experience" down to paper.

[Jundo]

It's hard to capture this practice in words without getting slightly off the mark. Truthfully as soon as we are aware of "thinking-non thinking" then we've actually lost it. That's a problem with books on zen. You cant really describe the indescribable. You can describe posture, and effort to an extent, but once we attempt to explain "experience" we're creating problems.

We may from time to time be in these moments of "thinking non thinking" or perhaps even "samadhi". Yet the instant we realize we are in it......we are not. I don't think anyone can really put that "in it experience" down to paper.

This is so.

I would say, however, that there are those who find boundless clarity free of thoughts and divisions ... and believe that the point is to reach and stay so as long as one can. There are even Buddhist Teachers (not so many Soto Zen Teachers, however) who will tell you that the point is to reach and stay such, free of thoughts, judgments and subject/object divisions.

However, most Zen folks of all stripes will tell you that the real fruits of this Practice come when one can attain such illumination shining right through and as the quiet spaces as well as whatever thoughts might happen to drift through mind ... the clarity of the mirror right as all the chaos of life encountered in the mirror. So, one does reach "thinking-non-thinking" where thoughts and no thoughts are not two. In the lovely talk on Song of the Grass Hut, Alan Senuake touches on the phrase "If one wishes to know the undying person in the hut, don't separate from this skinbag here and now". Buddha is found in and as all this, the "whole catastrophe" of life ... but then "whole catastrophe" is not encountered as was before such realization.

However, in order to realize that thoughts and the Buddha are not two, one must usually get pretty good at piercing that boundless, illuminated, "clear as a mirror glass", all encompassing, free sky between the clouds of thought.

I know that Brad would concur, although his words may be a bit misleading.

Gassho, J

PS - Someone asked where Brad can be a bit fast and lose with some of his statements. A quick recent example would be the paragraph in "There Is No God" where he seems to be saying that all forms of Buddhism involve meditation of some kind. Many Buddhists in the Chanting schools, such as the Pure Land and Nichiren folks, would disagree. He tends to make very fast and loose statements like so quite often which indicate that he didn't really do his homework or consider what he is saying. (The paragraph the starts "By the way .. ")

http://books.google.co.jp/books?id=JYu8UIh1whQC&pg=PT8&dq=there+is+no+god+warner+%22doesn%27t+involve+some+kind+of+meditation%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=w5JeU7j1IJDYkgXJtYGACg&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=there%20is%20no%20god%20warner%20%22doesn't%20involve%20some%20kind%20of%20meditation%22&f=false

[Roland]

Jundo, thank you for explaining Thinking-Non-Thinking. As I was writing my post and quoting Brad, I realized that it sounded rather dualistic, as you so eloquently pointed out. Of course, between realizing 'this sounds dualistic' and attaining the kind of illumination you describe, I will have to sit for a long time - which is perfectly okay with me.

Gassho, Roland

[Jundo]

Jundo, thank you for explaining Thinking-Non-Thinking. As I was writing my post and quoting Brad, I realized that it sounded rather dualistic, as you so eloquently pointed out. Of course, between realizing 'this sounds dualistic' and attaining the kind of illumination you describe, I will have to sit for a long time - which is perfectly okay with me.

Gassho, Roland

In some ways, thinking "this will take a long time" makes it take a long time. It is rather like riding a bicycle ... tricky and hard when one thinks about it as an outsider, literally "child's play" when one gets rolling. Thinking it is hard and scary and takes lifetimes to attain makes it so.

I often say that this way is not about learning to do something ... it is about unlearning and just putting down. Put down thoughts of "longtime" or "short time", good and bad, something to attain ... sit in the Timeless, Whole Goodness of Zazen simply attaining Zazen in each moment ... and, like child's play, one might attain something VERY good in a short time.

It is a Timeless Whole Goodness that is both short times and long, good and bad and all the broken pieces of life ... not two.

Gassho, J

PS - This other attitude mentioned today is also vital ...

I came across a discussion on the internet this week about "how to Shikantaza" ... and much good and solid advice was given. Some folks follow the breath, some "Just Sit" in boundless spaciousness, some advised this or that on the posture and letting thoughts go. All wise and good, and talk of posture, focus and such are all a necessary setting of the stage.

However, in my view (and that is all it is, and hopefully a viewless view too) SOMETHING VITAL WAS LACKING AND LEFT OUT OF THE CONVERSATION, something without which Zazen is perhaps left incomplete and lacking ...

... TO WIT ..................

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?12250-The-point-of-zazen&p=127298&viewfull=1#post127298

[Roland]

In some ways, thinking "this will take a long time" makes it take a long time. It is rather like riding a bicycle ... tricky and hard when one thinks about it as an outsider, literally "child's play" when one gets rolling. Thinking it is hard and scary and takes lifetimes to attain makes it so.

I often say that this way is not about learning to do something ... it is about unlearning and just putting down. Put down thoughts of "longtime" or "short time", good and bad, something to attain ... sit in the Timeless, Whole Goodness of Zazen simply attaining Zazen in each moment ... and, like child's play, one might attain something VERY good in a short time.

It is a Timeless Whole Goodness that is both short times and long, good and bad and all the broken pieces of life ... not two.

Gassho, J

PS - This other attitude mentioned today is also vital ...

Thank you for these thoughts, Jundo. I thought them over, read related posts and a bit of the Shobogenzo. I went to Myozan Kodo's Wednesday Evening Zazen. Sitting, I heard the noise of the fridge. My knee did hurt a bit from a previous attempt to try the full lotus. My mind was struggling with these phenomena, but then I felt like I was smiling at my struggling mind, the fridge and the knee. It was all still there, but it felt okay. But then the thought came 'who is smiling' and there was like a blank - and the feeling that the knee and the fridge probably were smiling, and all those other things around me and far beyond "me". It was not as if there was no self at all, it was still there but much quieter, and somehow there was also a feeling of kindness and compassion.
I don't know whether these thoughts/feelings were induced by your words, or whether I would have felt that way without these conversations and readings, but one of the thoughts which resonated a lot was 'cleaning the windshield and seeing clear'.

I had a huge resistance against your saying 'truly understanding that everything is completely beyond need for change'. I thought "how can he say that, while there is so much injustice, exploitation and repression? Should our parents and grand-parents have said 'everything is completely beyond the need for change' while people were being deported to die in gas chambers? Hell no!" But then again there is your other image of climbing the mountain, while every step is fully arriving...

Gassho, Roland

[Jundo]

Lovely.

But do not over-analyze too much. Otherwise, it is all the difference between making love and analyzing/describing one's making love, eating ice cream tasting the sweetness and philosophizing about "what is sweetness". Just love, just taste, just sit.

I had a huge resistance against your saying 'truly understanding that everything is completely beyond need for change'. I thought "how can he say that, while there is so much injustice, exploitation and repression?

In our crazy-sane way, one can accept and not accept AT ONCE, AS ONE. Each thing is just what it is, yet flawed ... perfectly flawed. So, there is nothing in need of change, yet simultaneously much about this world to change ... a Koan. It is much like seeing the kitchen as "perfectly dirty" as well as "beyond all human thoughts of clean vs. dirty" ... yet it is dirty, so we best clean it up! So with the whole world, all the wars and poverty and disease and injustice.

And as we set to cleaning ... each step is total arrival as we polish, polish, polish.

Something like that.

Gassho, J