Innate Freedom

[RichardH]

I've been re-reading an old book by Trungpa and Herbert Guenther (The Dawn of Tantra). Not sure why, but it is a read I have returned to a few times, and this comment on the nature of freedom stood out this morning..

What does it mean to free something? In the western world, freedom has usually been used as a negative term: we speak of freedom from this or freedom from that. The logical conclusion from this usage, a conclusion that nobody likes to draw, is that we must also reach a point of getting rid of freedom from freedom. It does not help to have recourse to the construction of “freedom to”, freedom to do this, freedom to do that. Freedom-to implies subordination to some transcendental hocus-pocus and that makes freedom disappear as quickly as the negative proposition does. We see, then, that freedom cannot be considered as a separate thing relative to something else. It must be itself an existential fact. In this sense freedom is not something that has to be achieved, it is basic to everything.” Freedom is inherent in all the cognitive processes.

Recent discussion here about dukkha also brought this to mind. I was wondering how it could be that over the recent death of a friend, I could feel grief and tears but no “dukkha”, and I realized that it was because the grief was whole and simple and free. Whatever is going on in this body and mind.. joy, sadness, pleasure or pain,.. it is innately free and whole. This innate freedom is not a good feeling vs. a bad feeling. Every state of being is innately whole and free, regardless of its tone or flavor.

In a way this is just repeating the same jargon I've heard a million times, but recently it has been lived more and I'm not sure why. It is like there is an existential core beyond the reach of life's ups and downs, or maybe no existential core at all. Ironically this is becoming more clear by no longer holding back from difficulty, and more fully feeling and fully engaging these ups and downs.

Just saying it out loud here. can any one relate? Thanks.

Gassho,Daizan

[Ryumon]

Innate Freedom

Definitely food for thought. The word freedom has so many meanings: as, in the excerpt that you quoted, both freedom to freedom from. But there was also the broader political freedom, and the more existential freedom, as you say.

I haven't read it in a couple of years, but Camus' The Myth of Sisyphus discusses what he calls absurd freedom. This might be a good time to go back and read that short book again; it's a text I have always appreciated.

Gassho,
Kirk


(Posted from my iPhone; please excuse any typos or brevity.)

[Hans]

Hello Daizan,

I can relate to your experience very much. The tantric Mahayana currents have detailed scriptures and commentaries underlining the basic characteristics of reality and all that arises. Often they are so technical and philosophical that they seem distant from everyday appearance, at other times however they plainly speak what is only very generally or poetically hinted at in some Zen scriptures. The self liberation of phenomena is a very important topic in different Mahamudra and Dzogchen schools.

Personally I like the following quote from the Ratnagotravibhaga very much, which is all about Buddha nature and related topics:

154: Here there is nothing to remove and nothing to add. The one who sees the truth of being as it is, by seeing the truth, is liberated.

...which reminds me of your written experience.

P.S.

When we westerners think of freedom, we often think of the freedom to do anything at all, having more and greater freedom of choice. Isn't it interesting though, that in real life situations, the clearer our insight, the smaller the number of ways of action? If one is totally clear about a situation, one usually has less choice, not more. But that's not a problem, on the contrary.



Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

[Hans]

Hello,

just another thought triggered by your Guenther/Trungpa quote.

In Hakuin Zenji's Song of Zazen it says:

"All beings by nature are Buddha,
As ice by nature is water.
Apart from water there is no ice;
Apart from beings, no Buddha."

To stay within this picture we can say that the "joy, sadness, pleasure or pain" you mentioned is no other than reality/Buddha nature itself and free from the beginning, though in our ignorance we do not see this fully.

Though ice shards may seem pointy, sharp and dangerous, if we relate to them in the right way, they are nothing but water. Crystal clear down to the bottom. Awakening.

Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

[Kyonin]

Hi.

Such and interesting thread!

Just this morning I was thinking about the self and feelings because of the recent events here in the sangha.

It came to my mind how I have reacted when death has been near me.

A few years ago my grandma died. She was my best friend and she pretty much shaped me the way I am today. I miss her.

When she died I felt this immense and deep sadness that filled me up. I felt numb. But I didn't cry. Tears just never came to my eyes. This sadness lasted for about 1 day and then I was happy because she wasn't suffering anymore.

I was contempt with things as they were. At peace. Everything was the way it was supposed to be.

There wasn't any feeling of freedom because there wasn't anything to run away from.

Maybe the concept of freedom shouldn't exist at all because it implies that there is an opposing force that you have to break.

But I don't know. I'm just a silly man.

Gassho,

Kyonin

[alan.r]

In a very basic way, I think what you mean when you say that you "could feel grief and tears but no 'dukkha'" is that you weren't fighting what you were feeling. You weren't viewing it as though it should be different: that you shouldn't be sad, that you shouldn't be feeling this way, that your friend shouldn't have died, etc. This is how I interpret your meaning, and I do it based on my experience: that we often complicate and make worse our "suffering" by engaging with it in certain ways. In this sense, we can often "trap" or "imprison" ourselves, by believing that it is all about us (our pain, our suffering, our loss, our dissatisfaction, our this and that): the trap, of course, is the self, the ego, the belief in the thing that wants and avoids, and thus, letting go of a deluded belief, a thing that is not even really there - what is essentially a fiction - allows us to be the freedom we already are. So yeah, like Hans says, all beings Buddha, or as you say, all innately whole and free. Of course though, from the perspective of the little self, there is definitely something to be free from, which is, ironically (as it is only from the perspective of the little self that this can be true), the little self itself. It's really only when one drops that game of imprisoned vs free that one sees that the terms don't really apply, that the whole need for escape was a fiction itself, just as the self is.

There are, as Kirk states, other kinds of freedom and imprisonment, of course, and many of them, I would argue, more important than my little sitting.

All that being said, have I had like experience? Oh, occasionally, who knows. Most likely, not very much: I'm often trapped by the thought I'm free. It's good practice.

Thanks for this, Daizan.

Oh, also, along with Kirk, I like Sartre's writing in his very slim volume called Existentialism and Human Emotions, which I think says we are "radically free" and are the creators of our life. It's pretty cool.

Gassho

[RichardH]

Thank you for these interesting responses.

Alan said....

In a very basic way, I think what you mean when you say that you "could feel grief and tears but no 'dukkha'" is that you weren't fighting what you were feeling.

There is no fighting because there is no this to brace against that. I can't push away my own bones.
To be honest it is not all clear cut.. it is just how things are going lately... the drift of it. I can relate to what Hans posted, but have not had an Enlightenment experience or anything like that. It is more like getting tired of clenching a muscle, and relaxing it.

Gassho, Daizan

[alan.r]

There is no fighting because there is no this to brace against that. I can't push away my own bones.
It is more like getting tired of clenching a muscle, and relaxing it.

Yes, I like this a lot. We can't push away our own bones, but, nonetheless, we try, and sometimes try forever. So, this is a huge (and yet ordinary) realization to me. There is a contentment there. I once wrote something (that no one will ever see, gratefully), that had someone wishing they could unclench the fist they felt forming in their heart. I think a lot of us go around with that fist; zazen is unclenching it, opening the hand of thought, but also opening the hand of the heart.

Gassho

[Daitetsu]

Hi Daizan,

I can relate to what Hans posted, but have not had an Enlightenment experience or anything like that.

IMHO you can get wet by either falling into a lake or by walking through the mist for some time - awakening does not need to be a spectacular one-time-event.
Just my 2 cents...

Gassho,

Daitetsu

[Joyo]

The greatest freedom I have ever experienced is freedom from the mind, the mental theatre. And even when it continues on, freedom comes in doing my best to iqnore it.


Gassho,
Joyo

[Rich]

Every time you make something its just another delusion. That's why they said freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose.



Kind regards. /\

[Ryumon]

Every time you make something its just another delusion. That's why they said freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose.

Actually, I like the way the Grateful Dead sang the song. Bob Weir, who sang it, would alternate between the version you said and:

Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to do

Which could be a good description of shikantaza.

Gassho,

Kirk


(Posted from my iPhone; please excuse any typos or brevity.)

[Rich]

Either way, words are insufficient and they are used as weapons much too often. Thanks for reminding me of The Dead. There's a Jerry Garcia album I need to hear again.



Kind regards. /\

[RichardH]

Hi Daizan,


IMHO you can get wet by either falling into a lake or by walking through the mist for some time - awakening does not need to be a spectacular one-time-event.
Just my 2 cents...

Gassho,

Daitetsu

Hi Daitetsu . Sorry for not responding sooner. Been away from the internet for a few days. The experience or way of experiencing in the OP is something gradual, maybe organic. I can't say it is especially "Enlightened". I have had (what was for me) an awakening, with a sudden inside-out quality, after a seemingly fruitless effort to understand awareness. This was some years ago. I was struggling in practice, doing a lot of retreats, trying to be awareness. When suddenly there was the realization that awareness is effortless and pristine, and that the whole of body, mind and "world", including effort and non-effort, are present at-once, just like a mirror. Perfectly intimate as my very self, yet happening to no one. There was a quote I read somewhere by ..not sure who.. "when you realize that you are nothing , you realize you are everything". That is not just poetry as you may also know first hand, it is experiential fact. The birds fly across your face, and you are the sound of blowing through branches... All that poetry is true. That awakening was a new life... Yet as you may also know first hand, it was just the beginning of practice. Still just a baby.


Gassho, Daizan

[Daitetsu]

Hi Daizan,

Thank you so much for sharing this!
I tend to have difficulties putting certain things into words and eventually end up in metaphors, analogies, etc.

Yet as you may also know first hand, it was just the beginning of practice.

Yes!
Practice never ends ... again and again I stumble, making stupid mistakes and asking myself afterwards how this could have happened.
Yet - this is part of the game, I guess.

Gassho,

Daitetsu