Shikantaza too “advanced”?

[Liang]

Hmmm... How fast "I" have fallen off track and totally lost any center or stillness. Time to start over.

[Nameless]

Shikantaza humbles.

Gassho, Foolish John

[Mp]

Shikantaza is just shikantaza ... advanced or not is a human judgement and or perception. =)

Gassho
Shingen

[Ishin]

Shikantaza is just shikantaza ... advanced or not is a human judgement and or perception. =)

Gassho
Shingen

C

[Jundo]

I posted this on another thread today, but it fits here too ...

................

The medicine for this [Suffering] is to transcend all that ... which is what is undertaken in Shikantaza.

How? Elegantly simple really.

Shikantaza sits, allowing bird chirps to be chirpy, the breeze to be breezy, stinky garbage to be just that, lovely flowers to flower, yesterday yesterday and tomorrow tomorrow ... placing aside all judgment and resistance, analysis and plans, dreams of "what if" and regrets for "what was". All is as it is, and a vibrant flowing wholeness is all things.

Rising from the cushion, we can and should still clean up the stinky garbage, water the flowers and pick the weeds, learn from yesterday and plan for tomorrow (we are not complacent) ... yet the sensation of "flowing wholeness is all things" simultaneously pervades. Beyond good or bad, clean vs. dirty yet, hand-in-hand (like seeing out of two eyes at once) bad is yet bad and in need of fixing, dirty is still dirty in need of cleaning ... we should get on the clean-up job, and realization happens in our every choice and action in life ... while simultaneously all is as it is, not a thing in need of fixing.

As to the Dukkha of good things ... one can learn to appreciate and savor them while they are present, but appreciate and savor their parting too. One is not their prisoner, does not cling. Rather, one embraces ... yet also embraces their departing. If one has assets or a bit of treasure, one learns to appreciate them for what they are, not be overly attached like a sickness, and use them for good and healthful purposes. One is at Peace of One Piece with the happy times and sad/scary times too (even as the sad times make us fearful or cry with a broken heart ... there is the Heart which Cannot Be Broken). All is as it is, flowing wholeness ever changing.

And thus Shikantaza closes the gap on the existential Angst of the human condition, our mortality, feeling of separation from the world, basic unsatisfactoriness due to change and impermanence. The reason is that we come to now flow along (and feel ourselves as the flow) of change and impermanence, taste something timeless and whole as the mind drops human measures of "beginnings and endings, births and deaths" and "me and you, this vs. that" in the wholeness of Shikantaza.

The frictions drop away and the gap is closed. In fact, there never was a gap all along. All flowing flowing.

Thus the simple elegance, the power of the medicine of Shikantaza.

Gassho, Jundo

[Nameless]

That's awesome.

Gassho, Foolish John

[monkeyfish27]

I would say that this Chan Buddhist doesn't know much about tantric buddhism. Tantric Buddhism is devotional in nature and most of the meditation practice is based on devotion.
Because I myself am new to Tantra I will say to be a serious tantric buddhist you need a teacher to guide you and I do not have one and that is why I am moving more towards Zen now because finding a teacher in my area is very hard. Just like in Hinduism the devotion of tantric buddhism is called sadhana's and the best books on the subject I could recommend are by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. In the back of his books are usually sadhana's which I do along with my Zen practice. mandalas, butter lamps, offerings to the Buddha, these are all part of tantric buddhist meditation.

[Hans]

Dear Monkeyfish,

I am sure that in scholarly terms Geshe Kelsang Gyatso has been extremely well trained, but I for one would advise people to stay away from anything related to the New Kadampa tradition.

To each his/her own, but I have my reasons for saying this, and no, I never was a member or practitioner of the New Kadampa's teachings.

Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

[Kokuu]

I echo completely what Hans said. I lived in a New Kadampa centre for six months and have an inside view of how the organisation functions. There are many very positive people within the NKT who have very genuine motivation. However, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso has a very insular approach to practice which is both rigid and incredibly literal. Teachers are instructed to parrot his words rather than finding their own wisdom. I would also advise giving them a wide berth for a variety of reasons.

If you want to practice tantra/vajrayana within a similar tradition, the Foundation for the Preservation of the Mahayana Tradition (FPMT) offers more reliable books and teachers. Many sadhanas can be practiced without a teacher but you are right that Highest Yoga Tantra should be avoided unless you have a reliable mentor.

Gassho
Andy

[Ryumon]

Back to the advanced nature of shikantaza. I recently read a book by Robert Aitken, Taking the Path of Zen. It's a good book for beginners, but he says:

"It is a mature way of sitting, generally only for the most experienced student."

This said, he's not a Soto guy; he's a Rinzai guy.

Gassho,

Kirk

[Ryumon]

Dear Monkeyfish,

I am sure that in scholarly terms Geshe Kelsang Gyatso has been extremely well trained, but I for one would advise people to stay away from anything related to the New Kadampa tradition.

To each his/her own, but I have my reasons for saying this, and no, I never was a member or practitioner of the New Kadampa's teachings.

I was close to getting involved with these people. I had read a number of Kelsang Gyatso's books, and they lay out a very structured path. But I didn't like the way they acted; it seemed a bit cultish. I later found out there was some sort of rift with other Tibetan buddhists about worshiping a specific deity that the Dalai Lama was against. Too much politics for me.

Gassho,

Kirk

[Jundo]

Maybe we should halt discussion in criticism of other Traditions. We are outsiders here, and even our members who had exposure to practice in these Lineages maybe cannot present all sides.

There is plenty of information available on the internet from people on both sides of the New Kadampa matter. It is a very hot issue, I know, and there has even been alleged violence.

Gassho, Jundo

[Myosha]

Hello,

Clinging attachment can be distracting.


Gassho,
Myosha

[Kokuu]

"Maybe we should halt discussion in criticism of other Traditions. We are outsiders here, and even our members who had exposure to practice in these Lineages maybe cannot present all sides."

I agree with this to a certain extent but there was a similar dilemma addressed in another Buddhist discussion group I have been part of. Whereas the prevailing trend was not to bring up perceived failings in particular Buddhist traditions or teachers, it was pointed out that not doing that could be more problematic. If newcomers cannot rely on more experienced practitioners to talk about well-known problems with teachers and organisations, are we not failing them in some way?

Jundo, is the problem here that we are being critical of a non-Zen tradition, doing it at all or doing it out in the open? Whereas we cannot indeed represent all sides of the discussion, if a member here talked about working with a teacher who had known issues, would it not be amiss not to talk about that? Could we mention there is some controversy or maybe bring it to the attention of you or Taigu and let you deal with it? Although letting them go in blind allows them to make up their own mind, surely forewarned is forearmed?

Gassho
Andy

[Hans]

Hello Jundo,

I have no issues with the Gelug school in general (and that is a WIDE and diverse school), but I will warn everyone from engaging with the New Kadampa at the moment that the name comes up.

Everyone is free to disagree with my research, but not mentioning both my "findings" and in addition my deepest gut feeling based on my arguably limited life experience is something I will and cannot have on my conscience, especially if it is dharma beginners we are talking about. You won't ever see me spending extra time on forums to tell people what a problematic group it is, but if someone mentions them in a neutral way in this forum here, I feel it is my duty to at least add my unimportant and fallible voice to the mix.

Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen