Cannot ignore thought...

[Joyo]

Thoughts come in a whirlwind that carries me away most of the times. It takes practice and determination to just sit until one day you realize there is no point on struggle with thoughts.

They come and go and suddenly you find yourself looking at them from afar.

Don't push. Don't rush and quit asking, looking for answers.

Thoughts, memories and fantasies are not you. They just drift away.

Gassho,

Kyonin

This is beautiful, Kyonin. Can you tell me how long it took for that one day to come when you realize there is no point on struggling with thoughts? I have been practicing for 1 yr with Treeleaf now, and I still struggle with thoughts all the time, on and off the zafu.

Gassho,
Joyo

[Sydney]

I sit with an active mind quite often. What I find remarkable is that sometimes I find it really stressful, but sometimes it's not all that unlike just watching a swift river churn.

[Jundo]

I sit with an active mind quite often. What I find remarkable is that sometimes I find it really stressful, but sometimes it's not all that unlike just watching a swift river churn.

Lovely!

And sometimes the waters settle so still and clear, one can see all the way to the bottom and just the water remains!

All the same waters (Unless I am just all wet, of course! )

Gassho, J

[Jinyo]

This is beautiful, Kyonin. Can you tell me how long it took for that one day to come when you realize there is no point on struggling with thoughts? I have been practicing for 1 yr with Treeleaf now, and I still struggle with thoughts all the time, on and off the zafu.

Gassho,
Joyo

Hello Joyo,

I'm hesitant to write anything because I still struggle a great deal , but I don't think Kyonin is saying that a day dawns for all time when we simply give up struggling. Some days we give up the struggle simply because we're punch drunk and can't think anymore. I think this can be a good teacher because we come to realise the negative, exhausting effect of too much thinking. Another day may go more peaceful and we feel we have succeeded in giving up the struggle. Equanimity is both lost and found within each moment - it's just easier some days to see that it is so. but I also agree with Kyonin that practice and determination are necessary.

Metta for all who are weighed down with struggle with thoughts.

Gassho

Willow

[Jundo]

Hello Joyo,

I'm hesitant to write anything because I still struggle a great deal , but I don't think Kyonin is saying that a day dawns for all time when we simply give up struggling. Some days we give up the struggle simply because we're punch drunk and can't think anymore. I think this can be a good teacher because we come to realise the negative, exhausting effect of too much thinking. Another day may go more peaceful and we feel we have succeeded in giving up the struggle. Equanimity is both lost and found within each moment - it's just easier some days to see that it is so. but I also agree with Kyonin that practice and determination are necessary.

Metta for all who are weighed down with struggle with thoughts.

Gassho

Willow

Lovely.

[Mp]

Lovely.

I agree ... this was lovely Willow, thank you. =)

Gassho
Shingen

[Joyo]

Thank you, Willow. Glad you were not too hesistant to post, we can all learn from eachother.

Gassho,
JOyo

[dharmasponge]

Thanks Willow...

[dharmasponge]

Some good advice here. (I am going to make the following big cause I want to say so loud and clear) ...

Follow the breath for a time if really really disturbed or tangled in thought. If really really really swept up in a storm.

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?7695-Sit-a-Long-with-Jundo-Zazen-for-Beginners-%28Part-XI%29

Then, when one can, return to open, spacious sitting without resistance and flowing with equanimity. But why do you think one must be "shutting the mind up sufficiently to be able to 'just sit'???" You are thinking that something must be a certain better or ideal way to "just sit" ... instead of dropping all demands on how things must be. Only the latter is true "just sitting".**

Remember, it takes "two to tangle" to be bothered by anything ... be it thoughts or any circumstance in life. In the end, the thoughts are not bothersome or annoying, but your reaction to them ... and saying to yourself "this is disturbing" makes them disturbing. The answer, in Shikantaza, is ultimately not to remove the object you think is "causing disturbance" but, instead, to remove the "subject causing disturbance" ... your reaction, you.

When you can sit in the middle of a battlefield, Times Square or a plane crash and sit without resistance and flowing with open equanimity ... this is true Shikantaza. One finds then that the battle ends, Silence is found in the greatest noise. The bills, the broken car, the sick kid, the jerk boss are ultimately not the source of disturbance. Each is just what it is. You are the source of disturbance.

Weird, huh?

The more you try to get rid of the source of the problem ... the more you make a problem. Just drop the judgments and resistance to so-called problems and ... no problem! Oh, the sick kid and jerk boss may remain, the plane may still crash ... yet they do not.

Gassho, Jundo

** Reminds me of this old joke for some reason ...



Sometimes what we think we need to do to solve the problem (search where conditions are better, like the light or the quiet in our heads or out) is not what we really need to do to solve the problem.

Hi Jundo and everyone,

Is the result to be unmoved by the boss, the bills etc? I understand how that silence and sense of distance from all the 'stuff' is welcomed given the busy lived many of us lead. But how does this bring about Enlightenment, Liberation, a permanent cessation of suffering, Nirvana....pick one?

I still think this is why we sit using our chosen method. We have a deep existential angst. This is, is it not what the historical Buddha taught that we can free ourselves from?

Tony...

[MyoHo]

Hi Tony,

Sometimes it helps me to think of thoughts as `secretions of the mind´. Like sweating or any other body function. When sitting many thoughts come along ( trust me I know, I'm dealing with some real horrible ones these days ) but it helps to look at them as something the mind makes out of its own.
Just like the hart does its work or our digestive system. it is completely useless to actively try to stop this process, It cannot be done bro or you be dead. So whats best is to sit and, if your mind is very very active because of all the stuff that is our life, do the breathing and try to label a thought consciously and then let it pass. For example if you are worried about paying bills, think "ah, there is worry again' and then drop it. When you start daydreaming you just think "daydreaming again' Then something else comes up like something you are ashamed of or a bad memory. Think: "memory' or 'shame' and let it be. It is the only place we have where we can recognize it and then just let it be.

Once you get accustomed to this trick ( not a trick really) you can use it even further and take that worry or pain or sorrow , recognize it for what it is and sit right smack in the middle of it all! All that stuff is OK. Let it come and observe. It is who you are. It is what makes Tony to be Tony. By trying to suppress or deny stuff by pushing it away it is the same thing as ordering someone "not to think of a pink elephant'. You can be sure the only thing that person will be thinking off..... is a pink elephant. Thinking not thinking about it, is thinking about the pink elephant too. So, like Dogen said, leave it all at the door of the zendo and go to the only sacred/ not sacred place we really have, on the zafu, being just you. So, my advice to you would be to sit, get organized and say 'OK lets see how much is in there today, lets meet the most intimate Tony that only Tony can meet. Bring it all on!' instead of fighting an involuntary bodily function. It's hard. It is very hard but you can do it!

Hope it helps a bit bro.

Gassho

Myoho

[Jika]

Tony and all who answered,

thanks for this very helpful thread.

As I'm so very new to zazen, I can only share that I feel like I'm walking a rebelious dog when I'm on my zafu.

I'd like the dog to stay right at my side (in the present moment), but it jumps off into the past or the future, it diggs up stuff, sometimes it goes hunting the rabbit of sleep. And I suddenly notice and ask the dog "Where have you been again? Heel!"
Sometimes I see it slowly leaving my side and call it back softly.
Sometimes it's so fast I only realize after minutes.

I'm sharing this because this dog-metaphor is helpful to me: it's not my fault or the dog's fault, no need to feel bad about it, or angry for calling again and again. The dog has some natural behaviour (like other people said in their metaphors too), and we both need training. I can imagine how it's enjoying its liberty when I don't watch it, and returning with a guilty look when I call.
It's a kind of game we play, over and over again.

When you get a dog, you sign that deal, when I got a zafu, it was the same.

Gassho,
Danny

[dharmasponge]

Nice Danny. If I ever get another dog it'll be called Zafu!

[Jika]

[Byokan]

Hi All,

I’ve only been playing shikantaza since April, but Danny’s dog-metaphor is right-on for me. I don’t get upset. I love that dumb mutt. We enjoy our walk, good weather and bad, and it’s good for us.


The brain thinks, makes connections, remembers, imagines, and makes plans. That is what brains do. My brain is a jiggling jello-mold inside this bone-bowl I call my head, it’s not me. Thinking is not bad, it’s part of being in a human body.

My feeling is that meditation is more than quieting the thoughts, much more. The thing is to allow yourself to realize (remember) Reality as it is (is not), and this encompasses much more than the human experience. ‘Your’ thoughts are coming from ‘your’ brain, and they are related to ‘your’ experience... if you are only focused on that, you are missing the big picture. Allow your body to do what it does, and stop wrestling with it, stop being fooled by the senses and thoughts, they are limited expressions of something much larger. Oh I can’t say it, I don’t have the words.


Joyo’s words on another thread come close, if I may paraphrase: stop scratching at that rock and turn around, lift your eyes up to see a beautiful valley full of wonder and life.

Gassho
Lisa

[Oheso]

I sit with an active mind quite often. What I find remarkable is that sometimes I find it really stressful, but sometimes it's not all that unlike just watching a swift river churn.

when I do similarly I need a spout like a tea kettle instead of the brook.

gassho, Oheso