Split Thread: Buddha's Runny Nose

[Ernstguitar]

NOTE FROM JUNDO: I SPLIT THIS CONVERSATION FROM ANOTHER THREAD

Thank you.
This is a very clear description of the physical sensations during zazen.
I very often have a runny nose after 30 minutes. I use the handkerchief.
I wounder, if you could do the same description for the mental part.
How would you describe the

If the sky is clear of clouds and no thought arise,

.....
So, thinking is the itchy nose, what is the blue sky?

[Jishin]

Blue sky. :-)

Gassho, Jishin

[Daitetsu]

Blue sky. :-)

Nice!

Gassho,

Daitetsu

[Jishin]

:-)

[MyoHo]

This is something that always comes up while sitting at one time or another. Good stuff, thank you for reminding us and for showing even very experienced practitioners still have to deal with these things.
Thank you Jundo.

Gassho

MyoHo

[Jundo]

Blue sky. :-)

Gassho, Jishin

Yes.

In the blue sky, no nose, no place to run. Or better said, the blue sky is all the Buddha's nose running free.



Nonetheless, our allergies remain, drive us nuts, and itchy nose is the clouds.

But since clouds and sky were never two ... itchy nose is just blue sky, and we sneeze out clouds of Buddhas.

Itchy nose remains itchy nose, but is Buddha's nose all along. It still itches and runs, yet now ... BuddhaaaaaaAHHHHCHOOOOOO!

Something like that.

**

Gassho, J

PS - Ernst, are you allergic to the incense? Zafu? carpet? Dust on the floor? Something must be causing that runny nose.

**

Priests at one of Japan's most famous temples have taken steps to block the sale of a sweet marketed as the "Snot from the nose of the Great Buddha".
They have prevented the name being registered as a trademark at the patent office, but have been unable to stop vendors selling the sweets to hordes of tourists who flock to see the giant Buddha in the ancient capital, Nara, in western Japan.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/japan/1461852/Buddha-sweet-has-sour-taste-in-Japan.html

[Jishin]

Hey Jundo,

Question about Dogen:

Emptiness is form and form is emptiness. Dogen went further and said that to say emptiness is form and form is emptiness is still duality because you have 2 concepts being used. He then said that emptiness=emptiness and form=form and this avoids duality. So when emptiness is mentioned, it includes everything including form=emptiness and emptiness=form and this expresses unity. So, blue sky is blue sky which includes everything including itchy nose. Is that what the first 3 paragraphs of Genjokoan is saying?

Gassho, Jishin

[Jundo]

Oye. Jishin, that question gives even me a headache!

In Shobogenzo Maka hannya haramitsu (Dogen's little riffing on the Heart Sutra) he says "form is empty, emptiness is form, form is form, emptiness is empty. It is the hundred grasses, it is myriad forms."

I have a simple way to view this, but I feel it right. A chair is just completely emptiness ... while emptiness is totally chair ... yet a chair is thoroughly and perfectly chair with nothing else ... and emptiness is purely emptiness. Emptiness is all things in reality, emptiness is the chair, so the chair is all the myriad things in reality ...

All true, just different angles (including angleless angles) (Stick whatever one wants in that sentence ... including oneself).

Maybe now I give you a headache!

My take on the first lines of Genjo is also about this dance of the "relative (form) and absolute (emptiness)".

As all things are buddha-dharma, there are delusion, realization, practice, birth and death, buddhas and sentient beings. As myriad things are without an abiding self, there is no delusion, no realization, no buddha, no sentient being, no birth and death. The buddha way, in essence, is leaping clear of abundance and lack; thus there are birth and death, delusion and realization, sentient beings and buddhas. Yet in attachment blossoms fall, and in aversion weeds spread.

First, a world of duality ... me and you, good and bad, birth and death, delusion and enlightenment, sentient beings and buddhas ... mountains are mountains. Itchy noses itch and we need to sneeze.

Yet, beyond self (in emptiness) ... no me no you, no good vs. bad, no birth or death, no delusion opposed to enlightenment, no sentient beings becoming buddhas ... mountains are not mountains. No noses no running.

But then we leap beyond and right through such Wholeness or division ... and once again there is me and you, good and bad, birth and death, delusion and enlightenment, sentient beings and buddhas ... mountains are mountains again, noses run again (but now things are not quite what they were perceived to be in duality for all is also emptiness.)

And a Great Peace results which is and holds all of life's myriad broken pieces. Nonetheless, life is still sad sometimes even through we know this Great Peace ... the broken pieces can still cut us to the quick ... "Though all this may be true, flowers fall even if we love them, and weeds grow even if we hate them, and that is all." Itchy noses may be Buddha nose dripping Buddha, yet still can be something we hate. (Perhaps it is an allergy to all those flowers and weeds? )

Anyway.... JUST SIT!

Gassho, J

[Jishin]

Thanks Jundo.

JUST SIT! is good advice.

Gasho, Jishin

[Daitetsu]

Lovely, Jundo!


@Jishin:
IMHO this is pretty similar to Seung Sahn's model of the "The Zen Circle":

"Soen-sa then held up a book and a pencil and said, "This
book and this pencil - are they the same or different? At 0°,
they are different. At 90°, since all things are one, the book
is the pencil, the pencil is the book. At 180°, all thinking is
cut off, so there are no words and no speech. The answer is
only ... " Here Soen-sa hit the table. "At 270°, there is per-
fect freedom, so a good answer is: the book is angry, the
pencil laughs. Finally, at 360°, the truth is just like this.
Spring comes, the grass grows by itself. Inside it is light,
outside it is dark. Three times three equals nine. Everything
is as it is. So the answer here is: the book is the book, the
pencil is the pencil. "


Gassho,

Daitetsu

[Jishin]

Maybe easier to follow:

"One of the most important teachings is that form is emptiness and emptiness is form.
So, from the very beginning Zen Master Seung Sahn always taught those very simple things:
form is emptiness, emptiness is form; then no form, no emptiness; then form is form,
emptiness is emptiness."

Anyway, I need to JUST SIT!

Gassho, Jishin

[Jishin]

Here is the whole enchilada about the Zen Circle:
The Zen Circle:

One evening, at the Providence Zen Center, Seung Sahn Soen-sa gave the following Dharma Speech:
“What is Zen? Zen is understanding myself. What am I?
“I explain Zen by means of a circle. There are five points marked on the circle: zero degrees, ninety degrees, one-hundred-eighty degrees, two-hundred-seventy degrees, and three-hundred-sixty degrees. 360° is exactly the same point as 0°.
“We begin from 0° to 90°. This is the area of thinking and attachment. Thinking is desire, desire is suffering. All things are separated into opposites: good and bad, beautiful and ugly, mine and yours. I like this; I don't like that. I try to get happiness and avoid suffering. So life here is suffering, and suffering is life.
"Past 90° is the area of the Consciousness or Karma I. Below 90° there is attachment to name and form. Here there is attachment to thinking. Before you were born, you were zero; now you are one; in the future, you will die and again become zero. So zero equals one, one equals zero. All things here are the same, because they are of the same substance. All things have name and form, but their names and forms come from emptiness and will return to emptiness. This is still thinking.
“At 180° there is no thinking at all. This is the experience of true emptiness. Before thinking, there are no words and no speech. So there are no mountains, no rivers, no God, no Buddha, nothing at all. There is only …” At this point Soen-sa hit the table.
“Next is the area up to 270°, the area of magic and miracles. Here, there is complete freedom, with no hindrance in space or time. This is called live thinking. I can change my body into a snake's. I can ride a cloud to the Western Heaven. I can walk on water. If I want life, I have life; if I want death, I have death. In this area, a statue can cry; the ground is not dark or light; the tree has no roots; the valley has no echo. “If you stay at 180°, you become attached to emptiness. If you stay at 270°, you become attached to freedom.
“At 360°, all things are just as they are; the truth is just like this. ‘Like this’ means that there is no attachment to anything. This point is exactly the same as the zero point: we arrive where we began, where we have always been. The difference is that 0° is attachment thinking, while 360° is no-attachment thinking. “For example, if you drive a car with attachment thinking, your mind will be somewhere else and you will go through the red light. No-attachment thinking means that your mind is clear all the time. When you drive, you aren't thinking; you are just driving. So the truth is just like this. Red light means Stop; green light means Go. It is intuitive action. Intuitive action means acting without any desire or attachment. My mind is like a clear mirror, reflecting everything just as it is. Red comes, and the mirror becomes red; yellow comes, and the mirror becomes yellow. This is how a Bodhisattva lives. I have no desires for myself. My actions are for all people. “0° is Small I. 90° is Karma I. 180° is Nothing I. 270° is Freedom I. 360° is Big I. Big I is infinite time, infinite space. So there is no life and no death. I only wish to save all people. If people are happy, I am happy; if people are sad, I am sad.
“Zen is reaching 360°. When you reach 360°, all degrees on the circle disappear. The circle is just a Zen teaching-device. It doesn't really exist. We use it to simplify thinking and to test a student's understanding.”

Soen-sa then held up a book and a pencil and said, “This book and this pencil—are they the same or different? At 0°, they are different. At 90°, since all things are one, the book is the pencil, the pencil is the book. At 180°, all thinking is cut off, so there are no words and no speech. The answer is only …” Here Soen-sa hit the table. “At 270°, there is perfect freedom, so a good answer is: the book is angry, the pencil laughs. Finally, at 360°, the truth is just like this. Spring comes, the grass grows by itself. Inside it is light, outside it is dark. Three times three equals nine. Everything is as it is. So the answer here is: the book is the book, the pencil is the pencil.
“So at each point the answer is different. Which one is the correct answer? Do you understand?
“Now here is an answer for you: all five answers are wrong. “Why?” After waiting a few moments, Soen-sa shouted “KATZ!!!” and then said, “The book is blue, the pencil is yellow. If you understand this, you will understand yourself. “But if you understand yourself, I will hit you thirty times. And if you don't understand yourself, I will still hit you thirty times. “Why?” After again waiting a few moments, Soen-sa said, “It is very cold today.”

Mitchell, Stephen (2007-12-01). Dropping Ashes on the Buddha: The Teachings of Zen Master Seung Sahn

Gassho, Jishin

[Ernstguitar]

Thank you.
I think, that my nose is o.k., it is just when I sit after about 30 min.
no allergic reaction, just relaxation, I think.

gassho, Ernst

[Ernstguitar]

Can I ask a very practical thing?
I sit for about 60 minutes. I like the physical feeling. But…..would you suggest either two times 30 minutes or is that not so important?
Both versions are o.k. for me, but I think, that maybe the break after 30 min. is helpful.

[Jundo]

Hi Ernst,

60 minutes at one go is long, even here in Japan and even during an "intense" retreat. The body can use a Kinhin walk at least. I would put 10 minutes of Kinhin in between, or place the sittings at different times of day.

But do you know that you must also sit beyond "long" or "short" and any sense of time or gain? If you are sitting for hours as if racking up points with each passing minute, or as if more time means you are getting "closer and closer" to some goal ... well, you are wasting your time.

If you can sit an instant right through and beyond all goal and need, all gain and time ... well, that is Buddha sitting Buddha in this way of sitting.

Do not misunderstand: If you feel right about sitting as long as you do, please continue! When I say "there is nothing wrong with long or short if beyond time counts" ... that also means that there is nothing wrong with sitting long!

Here is something I wrote on time for sitting ...

Sit-a-Long with Jundo: Zazen for Beginners (Part XXI)

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?9281-Sit-a-Long-with-Jundo-Zazen-for-Beginners-%28Part-XXI%29

Gassho, J