Contemplation

[Jundo]

Sometimes pick it up, sometimes put it down ... but the trickiest skill is learning how to "pick up and put down at once". Or better said, to pick up beyond and right through "up vs. down".

Now, get you butt down on the cushion, and find out what that's about.

Gassho, J

[alanjames]

That's a good analogy, Jundo - so, if you were to solve a maths problem, for example, you would pick up, and once solved, put down?

That is what I have been practicing - if something needs thinking, I pick up and focus, and once finished I put down and just be.

I'm going to plant my butt on my new Zafu, which just arrived today

[alan.r]

Hi Alan, I think you're getting the right idea - now the big extraordinary (and extremely ordinary) trick is to drop the idea you're getting (that's both true and zen joke; for now, just sit and let things be).

I think what Jundo means when he says we can "pick up and put down at once" is this: when you're doing some contemplation, maybe thinking about a film or writing an essay about a novel or something, is it all about you? Are you doing this to show off your intellect or are you doing it to understand? Usually, sometimes, a little of both, and in that case, you're not "putting down." You're not dropping self. The zen way would be to drop all considerations of self and contemplate fully on the thing, lose yourself in the thing and in thinking of the thing. Maybe you'll get some better understanding of said film/novel and maybe not, but one thing that'll definitely happen is a merging of self and other, a breaking down of boundaries of self - this happens on zafu, but can also happen out in the world, during contemplation, while watching a film, or while talking with someone at work, or whatever. So, my take is this: there are no contradictions in zen, because all life is zen, but also, there are ways in which we feed our ego, and if one is contemplating in order to prove to oneself and others that one is really contemplative and deep and intellectually superior (you know what I mean), then that is a self-centered, ego-trip. So, there's a way to contemplate and do things out in the world that accords with the four noble truths.

And I'd add that yeah, we're tangled in thoughts all the time - think of it - this thread, in fact, and many threads on this site, are people sort of tangled in their own ideas. You were tangled up in the idea that contemplation is somehow not part of zen - there it is! That concept, that idea, tripped you up. Of course, you're new to this and it's a good question, but that doesn't mean it's not an example of being caught up and trapped in ideas created by a self that thinks it knows.

Gassho

Edit: as a final thought - it's not bad to be tangled or trapped! It happens all the time. It's okay (don't be hard on oneself). Sitting is just the learning to drop/let go.

[alanjames]

Alan, thank you so much, this makes perfect sense to me - I shall now get rid of that idea and sit.

Have a nice day,

Alan.

[Jundo]

That's a good analogy, Jundo - so, if you were to solve a maths problem, for example, you would pick up, and once solved, put down?

That is what I have been practicing - if something needs thinking, I pick up and focus, and once finished I put down and just be.

I think what Jundo means when he says we can "pick up and put down at once" is this: when you're doing some contemplation, maybe thinking about a film or writing an essay about a novel or something, is it all about you? Are you doing this to show off your intellect or are you doing it to understand? Usually, sometimes, a little of both, and in that case, you're not "putting down." You're not dropping self.

Hmmm. I think you both missed my point. Sorry to not be clear. Let me try it this way:

Buddhist Practice, like many Eastern Philosophies, is about dropping dualities ... me vs. you, right vs. wrong, left vs. right, problems and answers, up vs. down. One attains a realm transcendent of all such categories and oppositions. There is no "up vs. down" ... just a Wholeness which sweeps all such in. One comes to know this on the Zafu, sitting Zazen, where we drop all thoughts, analysis, categories, personal aversions and attractions. What remains is that Wholeness. We come to experience that this Wholeness which is transcendant of "me vs. you, right and wrong, problems and answers, up and down" exists simultaneously in and AS this world of "me and you, rights and wrongs, problems and answers, ups and downs".

So, when we "pick up a thought" ... simultaneously one tastes a realm transcendent of thought and "up and down".

When on "puts down a thought" ... simultaneously one tastes a realm transcendent of thought and "up and down".

Something like that. Clear as mud?

Gassho, J

[alan.r]

Hmmm. I think you both missed my point. Sorry to not be clear. Let me try it this way:

Buddhist Practice, like many Eastern Philosophies, is about dropping dualities ... me vs. you, right vs. wrong, left vs. right, problems and answers, up vs. down. One attains a realm transcendent of all such categories and oppositions. There is no "up vs. down" ... just a Wholeness which sweeps all such in. One comes to know this on the Zafu, sitting Zazen, where we drop all thoughts, analysis, categories, personal aversions and attractions. What remains is that Wholeness. We come to experience that this Wholeness which is transcendant of "me vs. you, right and wrong, problems and answers, up and down" exists simultaneously in and AS this world of "me and you, rights and wrongs, problems and answers, ups and downs".

So, when we "pick up a thought" ... simultaneously one tastes a realm transcendent of thought and "up and down".

When on "puts down a thought" ... simultaneously one tastes a realm transcendent of thought and "up and down".

Something like that. Clear as mud?

Gassho, J

Wait, now I'm confused (lol). Isn't this in line with what I wrote, just in a different way? Isn't dropping dualities, isn't the main duality self vs other? There is no up vs down, but when one is fully focused on themselves, there certainly appears to be - that's what I was saying, that this up vs down and self vs other is our deluded way of experiencing. Is that wrong? What I meant to get at is that there is no picking up or putting down - there is only the sweeping wholeness, whether thinking or not, contemplating or not, whether being self-centered or not, but that we often forget this sweeping wholeness in favor of a self vs other delusion.

Gassho.

Man, maybe I just made this even more confusing...

[Jundo]

Wait, now I'm confused (lol). Isn't this in line with what I wrote, just in a different way? Isn't dropping dualities, isn't the main duality self vs other? There is no up vs down, but when one is fully focused on themselves, there certainly appears to be - that's what I was saying, that this up vs down and self vs other is our deluded way of experiencing. Is that wrong? What I meant to get at is that there is no picking up or putting down - there is only the sweeping wholeness, whether thinking or not, contemplating or not, whether being self-centered or not, but that we often forget this sweeping wholeness in favor of a self vs other delusion.

Gassho.

Man, maybe I just made this even more confusing...

Okay, even I am getting confused now!

So, let's put even this discussion down now ... and sit.

Gassho, J

[alan.r]

Sounds good. And my apologies for any muddle.

Gassho

[alanjames]

I originally thought alan's interpretation was just another way of saying what Jundo said, but I think it is wise that we put it down for now and sit.

[Kyonin]

In my humble experience, when you have heavy questions and you catch yourself over thinking, zazen is a good medicine.

In time and with discipline, answers will come.

Gassho,

Kyonin