Contemplation

[alanjames]

Hope everyone is well.

What do you guys think of contemplation?

I normally experience some form of thinking, or "reading between the lines". Whenever I experience a film, or some form of art - the contemplation takes the form of thinking about ideas that may have have appeared - I am not thinking in the form of whether something was good or bad, but more about something that may have been expressed - this is something that is that I thoroughly enjoy as it gives me a deeper understanding.

Is such contemplation denying the true nature of something - is such contemplation creating a concept to which the ego gets a grip of, thus not allowing one to experience the true nature of something, or is such contemplation another form of experience?

Hello from Dublin.

[Shokai]

Best to just sit; think of non-thinking. There are many techniques but here we do Shikantaza .
gassho, Shokai


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[Rich]

When thinking just think but when driving down the highway at 75mph I ain't contemplating. So it's a question of picking up and putting down. Always returning to just sitting mind like clear mind like space. If you become attached to your thinking then you are controlled by your thinking and completely miss things as they are right now. Personally I am in a period of intense study and thinking but doing other things and doing nothing through out the day.
Thanks for your excellent question. I'm sure the teachers here can explain things better.



Kind regards. /\

[alan.r]

When thinking just think but when driving down the highway at 75mph I ain't contemplating. So it's a question of picking up and putting down. Always returning to just sitting mind like clear mind like space. If you become attached to your thinking then you are controlled by your thinking and completely miss things as they are right now. Personally I am in a period of intense study and thinking but doing other things and doing nothing through out the day.
Thanks for your excellent question. I'm sure the teachers here can explain things better.



Kind regards. /\

This is right on to me. Thanks Rich.

Alan, do you mean contemplation during Zazen? Or are you talking about just contemplation in general? There's nothing wrong with contemplation - it has its place during contemplation. I personally wouldn't worry about contemplation and the ego - that, in itself, is a created problem. The idea that "concepts" are bad, also, to me, is a created problem. Concepts are only "bad" if we think that they are the real things and if we act in narrow ways according to conceptual understanding - if we get "stuck" in concepts, then that can be a problem. Otherwise, concepts are actually pretty helpful, as long as we take them lightly and see them for what they are (which are usually changing, evolving things).

I'm not entirely sure what your question is? What do you mean by another form of experience?

Gassho

[Jundo]

Hi,

As has been said, nothing wrong with contemplating films, art, philosophy, politics. Just do not be a prisoner of one's thoughts, tangled up and caught up. Do not overly buy into one's views and opinions.

And when heading for the Zafu, drop all views and opinions, analysis and ponderings. Just Sit, clear of all that.

When Priest Yaoshan was sitting in meditation, a monk asked,
"What do you think about, sitting in steadfast composure?"
Yaoshan said, "I think not thinking."
The monk said, "How do you think not thinking?"
Yaoshan said, "Non-thinking."

Thus we find the clarity and stillness that shiines behind and sweeps right through views and opinions, analysis and ponderings, films, art, philosophy, politics.

Is such contemplation denying the true nature of something - is such contemplation creating a concept to which the ego gets a grip of, thus not allowing one to experience the true nature of something, or is such contemplation another form of experience?

We tend not to both with such questions here, except to say that there is a time to experience with contemplation perhaps ... a time to experience without contemplation ... a time to experience contemplation non-contemplation as one.

Gassho, J

[alanjames]

This is right on to me. Thanks Rich.

Alan, do you mean contemplation during Zazen? Or are you talking about just contemplation in general? There's nothing wrong with contemplation - it has its place during contemplation. I personally wouldn't worry about contemplation and the ego - that, in itself, is a created problem. The idea that "concepts" are bad, also, to me, is a created problem. Concepts are only "bad" if we think that they are the real things and if we act in narrow ways according to conceptual understanding - if we get "stuck" in concepts, then that can be a problem. Otherwise, concepts are actually pretty helpful, as long as we take them lightly and see them for what they are (which are usually changing, evolving things).

I'm not entirely sure what your question is? What do you mean by another form of experience?

Gassho

Thanks for everyones response.

Alan, when I refer to contemplation, I am referring to when one experiences something - an example is when you watch a movie, and something in that movie makes you contemplate afterwords. Another example is when you read a very opinionated piece, and you can't help but contemplate and think about what has been written. I am interested in mental health, so when I hear a new study in relation to mental health, or about someone's experience, I contemplate (think).

When I mean by "another form of experience", I mean is thinking (contemplating) another form of experience, like seeing, for example?

I am not sure whether to stop such contemplation, as I am not sure whether such contemplation (of a film, or a book, for example) is developing this fixed concept of such, thus denying it's true nature, or is it okay as it is just another way of experiencing something? Should I just experience (through the forms of consciousness) and stop thinking?

I can give an example - A Space Odyssey - the first time I seen it, I really didn't know what was going on, what certain scenes represented, but through thinking about it afterwords (and when I say this, I mean devoting time to such contemplation, and not, let's say, doing something else whilst thinking about it) I began to see what each scene represented - this made the film more enjoyable.

Perhaps thinking should be left to when thinking is needed.

[MyoHo]

Hi,

Alan is right. What is the question? Assuming you mean an experience through contemplation while sitting Zazen I'd say no. When I had my dinner and go sit, all kind of stuff happen in my belly involuntarily. When I breathe, all kinds of stuff happen in my body involuntarily. When I'm awake ( and often when I'm asleep) all kinds of crap comes into my mind. Some is useful, most of it is not. Some teacher called our thoughts the secretions of the brain. Wile sitting, we try not to contemplate and just let the seeds of it go by. To do the exact opposite and in time the boundaries we make between ourselves and the world start to vanish. Not forcing thoughts out of your mind but just watching them go by, like clouds in the sky, without grabbing hold of them or acting upon them. Not like a zombie or a plant mind you, if you smell a fire, get out of the zendo, . ( Not much contemplation needed there either)

At other times, while reading and studying Dogen, we can contemplate or work on Koans until we look blue in the face. That is fine! Great insights and poetry comes from this. Some people here are true masters of this art and come up with beautiful and clarifying explanations that helps us all with our practice. When sitting shikantaza however, we just sit on the zafu, make a mudra with your whole body and drop out of your head altogether. I think it was Dogen that said: "when entering the zendo, leave all worldly affairs at the door".

Well, our teachers can say it way better then I can. let'wait for them

Gassho

MyoHo

[Jundo]

Alan,

I think you are thinking too much about these questions!

There is a time to experience a film, a flower, the moon without thinking. That is a real experience free of thinking.

There are times to experience enjoying thinking about the film, the flower or the moon. I like thinking about films and flowers. That is a real experience of thinking.

Just do not become a prisoner of thinking.

Also, know the Clarity and Wholeness of "non-thinking" that shines through and as all thinking and emotions. That is a real experience of "non thinking".

In fact, if one drops the thinking enough ... one can find that films and flowers and you and me were each other, and the Moon of Enlightenment all along!

Gassho, J

[alanjames]

Thank you - may I ask what would be an example of one becoming a prisoner of thinking?

It is nice to know that there is nothing wrong with contemplation - when I read zen material, I contemplate with what is being written - I suppose an example of becoming prisoner of thoughts would be if I were to not stop thinking about such material all day - I think then I would become tangled.

I thought that thinking was wrong, hence my thread, but I now realise that there is time for contemplation, but just not to become tangled.

Apologies again.

[Shokai]

OK, so you're over thinking. Like a dog shaking a rag doll or chasing his tail; expecting answers. I may just be a product of too many problem solving courses but, I am a great believer in putting things on the back burner. Look something over, get a feel for it then put it aside. The answer will come to you. Like Shugen said on another thread recently. Lately he has had things come to mind and before you know the topic will come up on a thread here. There are wonderful things happening in your mind but you have to give them room to happen. Isn't there a zen story about over pouring the tea?
Sometime this technique/strategy may seem like procrastination. I don't know. Somehow things happen when they are supposed to. Ya can't watch a boiling pot

Just my take on it

gassho Shokai

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[Jundo]

Hi Alan,

Might I trouble you to introduce your self (the small one ) here, and post a picture of a human face too (see our Privacy tips)?

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?11810-Greetings-by-new-folks-%28January%29

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?8531-CONFIDENTIALITY-TIPS-for-Sangha-Members

You are new to Zazen. I am afraid that this "not being a prisoner" and clarity is something best experienced on the Zazen cushion, then brought out into life. Just Sit, dropping all the contemplation, judgments, analysis, thoughts of causes and effects, today yesterday or tomorrow. Put that all down for a time. When thoughts do come during Zazen, open the hand of thought and do not grab on. Sit as you can in the still, boundless, clear spaces between thoughts. You will find that a certain stillness and illumination appears which shines right through thoughts. They become like gossamer, less solid, serious and binding.

Then, rising from the cushion and encountering the rest of life, you may find that one is also better equipped to not become tangled. "Important problems and rhetoric" also somehow become like a child's toy, something you can pick up or put down easily. Noisy debates and complex questions are also lit with that same silence and light as well.

You have to just Practice. What is it like? Otherwise it is like someone raised all their life in the noise and bustle of New York City (the thinking mind) who has never experienced that moment when one heads into the far far desert of Arizona ... so silent beyond silent, the horizon so boundless in all directions that one feels as if one has never truly seen the sky and stars. How can you explain such to one who is stuck in Manhattan, knowing Arizona only from the TV and post cards? How do you explain quiet to one who only has lived with noise? Have you ever had that experience of real desert silence?

In our Zen Way, however, we do not remain in the desert. We return to the city, but now realizing the Desert is always precisely the City, Silence is heard in the greatest noise and Boundless Horizons are visible right through the canyons of skyscrapers. Thinking-Non-Thinking.

Something like that. (Analogies are not perfect. Do not think that we "kill the thoughts completely" during Zazen. Even in the desert their are noises and canyons.)

Gassho, Jundo

[Jishin]

Thank you - may I ask what would be an example of one becoming a prisoner of thinking?

.

Examples include excessive anxiety about the future and Obsessive compulsive disorder. The mind can be hijacked and be a prisoner in these examples. Tons of other examples though. Stop thinking about the pink elephant in the room NOW!!! Can you drop the pink elephant from your mind? Folks that practice Shikantaza probably can drop this worthless thought a little faster than non practitioners. :-)

Gassho, Jishin

[Entai]

Something like that. -Jundo

Great description.

Gassho, Entai

[Jundo]

Examples include excessive anxiety about the future and Obsessive compulsive disorder. The mind can be hijacked and be a prisoner in these examples. Tons of other examples though. :-)

Gassho, Jishin

It need not be such extreme examples. All day, we are so often all tied up with opinions, desires, regrets, fears, resentments, longings etc. etc. in big and small ways. The hustle and bustle, traffic and noise of the mental city.

Gassho, J

[alanjames]

Then, rising from the cushion and encountering the rest of life, you may find that one is also better equipped to not become tangled. "Important problems and rhetoric" also somehow become like a child's toy, something you can pick up or put down easily. Noisy debates and complex questions are also lit with that same silence and light as well.

I understand what you are saying, Jundo - I think through practicing sitting, I could pick up the child's toy (thinking) when it is needed, and put it down when not.I originally thought experiencing thinking about something (a film, for example) was a contradiction of Zen, but I now see that it has its place, but it is important to not become tangled - I think through practice I could pick up and put it down, thus preventing becoming tangled.

I hope I interpreted you correctly, Jundo.